EV pay per mile - disabled drivers

TooManyPoints

The police are clearly aware but under resourced

They are not under resourced. They choose to prioritise other things. Such as this:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4gz1qy30v5o

However, we digress!

born_again

MouldyOldDough said:

We have a number of e-scooter riders/drivers where we live - who shoot down the road (30 limit) at well over 40mph - what can be done about them ?
The police are clearly aware but under resourced - so cannot even provide a deterent !

Trouble is they are pretty much untouchable. Round here they all wear balaclavas. Same on the illegal e-bikes. Unless they catch them before they set off. Once going they can not touch them. Bless they may hurt the little angles who do nothing wrong. 🤬

Herzlos

They'll have the scooter confiscated and be charged for driving without insurance, IF the police catch them.  Big IF though. 

I really don't understand why they are legal for sale; I know in theory you could use them on private land, but there can't be many people with enough clear private land to use them. 

MattMattMattUK said:

In reality it does not make sense to tax EVs per mile, it would be overly complicated for little net gain. What we actually need to do is have a complete review and simplification of our tax system, remove complexity, remove loopholes, a far simpler set of allowances, rates and overall structure. We have over 23,000 pages of current tax legislation and guidance running to around eleven million words, or around 230 days of continuous reading, or if reading it as a full time job just short of three years. The legislation in Singapore, Norway or Germany numbers a few hundred pages, it can be read in a weekend, it is far simpler, it has far fewer (if any) loopholes and it makes more sense overall rather than the UK system, which only benefits tax evaders and accountants. 

There is no need to introduce a new tax for EVs, just increase fuel duty for a short term boost and in the long term use funds raised from general taxation. 

Agreed; they might save a fortune in administration too if they even cut the wordcount in half. 

Grey_Critic

In 2022 The UK government received tax revenue from drivers of petrol and diesel cars via two key methods: fuel duty, which brings £28 billion a year into government coffers, and Vehicle Excise Duty (road tax), which nets roughly £7 billion. Combined, these sources make up 1.5% of the UK’s GDP and account for around 4% of all tax revenue.

Charging per mile is not difficult with available technology. My clock even adjusts itself twice a year. Your water gas and electric meters are read from afar. Don’t need WiFi it is done by radio and it is/will be built into your vehicle - and when you pass a receiver it will automatically download the data. The same technology will also enable them to update vehicle software or even disable your vehicle if you do not pay your taxes.

The proposed ID cards are part of a long term plan to get rid of cash, If they could get everybody using only plastic they would take another £600 million plus in tax by shutting down the black economy. All this used to be science fiction. Today it is rapidly becoming Science fact.

I often quote a simple fact to demonstrate how things have changed My Grandmother was born in 1886 - before the motor car and lived to see man walk on the moon.

Basically we cannot win.

Iceweasel

Karl Benz 1895

facade

Grey_Critic said:

In 2022 The UK government received tax revenue from drivers of petrol and diesel cars via two key methods: fuel duty, which brings £28 billion a year into government coffers, and Vehicle Excise Duty (road tax), which nets roughly £7 billion. Combined, these sources make up 1.5% of the UK’s GDP and account for around 4% of all tax revenue.

<snip>

Now that is sneaky!

So simply by increasing taxes "they" increase our GDP and can claim that "they" have improved the economy! (and possibly avoid a recession, even though "we" are worse off)

If "they" use the Bank of England total spending method of calculation any tax we pay counts twice (once when "they" take it off us, and again when "they" spend it) https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/explainers/what-is-gdp

Goudy

MattMattMattUK said:

There is no need to introduce a new tax for EVs, just increase fuel duty for a short term boost and in the long term use funds raised from general taxation. 

There are many problems with this.

First off, you would be asking others/everyone to pay what drivers used to pay.
To make car usage basically tax free (car ownership tax is VED) and burden society as a whole with recapturing that revenue is going to have far greater repercussions on the economy.

It won't be long before the state pension increases past the tax free earning limit, so now "granny" on a state pension will share the burden while someone floats around it a £100,000 Audi e-tron for free?

Higher general taxation slows the economy, something the government are trying to stop and are actually trying to increase (in their own limited way)

Plus it's not actually a vote winner is it, that's why no government has had the nerve to touch the likes of income tax for 50 years.

Now there is a situation where more people will move sooner from ICE to EV's, further reducing the revenue from fuel duty, thus the need to keep increasing the general taxation to compensate.

You also have a lot of low users that will pay a disproportionate amount than they did and millions that never paid it as they didn't drive all paying towards a replacement revenue scheme.

Adding more fuel duty is just going to drive up the price of everything we buy, increasing inflation.
It's all moved by fuel with duty on it.
Okay, you could advocate haulage firms move to electric, but that's just the same as moving from ICE cars to EV's. More lost fuel duty that you now say must come from more general taxation. 

Now we have a slow economy, high inflation, high general taxation and someone to blame, drivers.
And let's not forget, it's these very drivers that used to pay this revenue.

On the one hand you have a downward spiral of car usage tax and an ever increasing general taxation burden spread across everyone, driver or not drivers.
There won't be just a handful of loonies car haters, the country will be full of them.

You'd also have the government demotivated with anything driver/road related and as these drivers now bring in f'all.
Follow this through logically and it could be the start of the end for the private car.


Much better is to introduce a scheme that captures taxation from those that they used to get it from and that scheme is robust enough to continue as we all transition from ICE to electric.

The fuel duty scheme sort of self regulates for miles, the more you do the more you pay.
It also sort of self regulates for engine/car size. The bigger the car/engine the more fuel it uses, the more duty you pay.


A PPM scheme would obviously meet the first target, miles.
Just like fuel duty, the more miles you do the more you pay.

As for the second target, I would think like other PPM schemes around the world, there would be a sliding scale of per miles charge based on vehicle weight at some point.
The bigger/heavier the car the more you pay per mile.

Now we have a scheme that almost replicates the way fuel duty works, ie from miles/weight from only those that use the road.

As a bonus, it only "bothers" a small percentage of the whole population, current EV owners. 
Most of which would have paid fuel duty when using cars before they bought an EV.

The icing on the cake for the government is this current population of EV owners that haven't been paying any sort of usage taxation are not only relatively small but are a dying breed.
Once any PPM scheme is up and running and EV's are the only choice, any new driver or later changer won't know any different and those that remember that short time of EV usage that was tax free will die off.

born_again

Grey_Critic said:

In 2022 The UK government received tax revenue from drivers of petrol and diesel cars via two key methods: fuel duty, which brings £28 billion a year into government coffers, and Vehicle Excise Duty (road tax), which nets roughly £7 billion. Combined, these sources make up 1.5% of the UK’s GDP and account for around 4% of all tax revenue.

Charging per mile is not difficult with available technology. My clock even adjusts itself twice a year. Your water gas and electric meters are read from afar. Don’t need WiFi it is done by radio and it is/will be built into your vehicle - and when you pass a receiver it will automatically download the data. The same technology will also enable them to update vehicle software or even disable your vehicle if you do not pay your taxes.

The proposed ID cards are part of a long term plan to get rid of cash, If they could get everybody using only plastic they would take another £600 million plus in tax by shutting down the black economy. All this used to be science fiction. Today it is rapidly becoming Science fact.

I often quote a simple fact to demonstrate how things have changed My Grandmother was born in 1886 - before the motor car and lived to see man walk on the moon.

Basically we cannot win.

For some cars not all..

Kia clock does not self update. OTA updates does not work for pre 22 cars.
Kia connected system stop working after 7 years & there is no way to get them to work after that.

So they build receivers to pick up data. What will the cost of this & IT system be. Once locations are known easy to avoid. Unless they are at the end of every road. Insulation time of all these? Then manufactures have to design & install in cars in such a way as to not be tampered with. Arguments about the standards to be used?
Rules out old cars.

facade

<snip>
Rules out old cars.

Be great if "they" make it a requirement for PPM telemetry on all EVs sold from Jan 1st 2027, and then only make those cars pay the 3p a mile.

Pre 2027 EVs would rise in value, like 2001-2016 diesels (more so, since you can save more as an average driver (I believe it is 6,500 miles a year now) than you could with a £20 VED car.

Mildly_Miffed

Grey_Critic said:

Charging per mile is not difficult with available technology. My clock even adjusts itself twice a year. Your water gas and electric meters are read from afar. Don’t need WiFi it is done by radio and it is/will be built into your vehicle - and when you pass a receiver it will automatically download the data.

Nope, nowhere NEAR that simple.

Your clock adjusts itself from radio signals transmitted once nationally or internationally.

Your meters might be read automatically, mine aren't - and can't be, because there's no mobile signal here. And, yes, smart meters work over the mobile phone network for the vast majority of the population. All the existing 2/3G smart meters are being upgraded to 4G. It's only in parts of the north of Great Britain that a long-range radio signal is used instead of the mobile network.

Whatever road pricing solution is implemented has to work for the existing vehicle parc in the UK, not just new vehicles from whatever date, because it has to replace fuel duty, not just VED. Also, for requiring it in all new registrations and type approvals, it would have to be a UNECE standard. It also has to be immune from naughty people fiddling...

And, however the data is generated and communicated, think of the backoffice task of processing and parsing that data... 336bn vehicle miles per year, 42m registered vehicles - plus however many foreign-registered vehicles visiting the country.