EV pay per mile - disabled drivers

Grey_Critic

Road pricing has been the dream of politicians for many years, now it is finally arriving and you are moaning. I can assure you that it will not just be here in the UK. It will be worldwide in a few short years.

Your real problem will be just how much the various countries charge that you cross whilst on holiday - what if France decide to charge double even treble per mile for foreign vehicles. The next thing will be the fitting of a kill switch in your vehicle - don’t pay it will not start.

Not happy then buy a bike although it is just a matter of time before they will be taxing them.

Governments are always on the lookout for ways to increase the Tax Take.

Goudy

Car_54 said:

Goudy said:

born_again said:

Goudy said:

paul_c123 said:

MattMattMattUK said:

It seems that every time there is a long term strategic shift in consumption or usage the government seeks to complicate the tax system rather than simplify it. 

It would make sense as we want people to transition away from ICE vehicles to stick 10p a litre on petrol and diesel this year and then raise it with inflation plus or 5p a year until it is phased out, that should solve the revenue until at least 2040. It probably also makes sense to increase VED ahead of inflation for the next decade or two, maybe 10% a year on all levels. Long term a 3-4 times increase of VED should cover the revenue needed, moving to a model based on vehicle weight, with any difference made up via general taxation. 

You can't just tax diesel because the UK Transport sector will be severely affected - and try to pass its costs onto its customers (which is everybody).

You can't just tax fossil fuels as there would need another scheme when fossil fuelled vehicles are all gone.

The PPM, however it comes about will be introduced on EV's.
So to start with there will be some form of PPM tax applied to EV mileage.
That doesn't mean that is the end of it.

If it was a scheme linked to say charging and electricity supply, then the government can't switch it on for the fossil fuel cars still on the road.

Yes it looks like we'll all end up in some sort of electric vehicle, but between now and then there are millions of other vehicles doing billions of miles a year.

Whatever scheme is introduced, it will certainly be able to capture everything and it will be only a short time before they decide to include it for other forms of propulsion.

There is no need for PBM at all.
VED can simply be increased instead. Just like they do now.

On the fuel duty point. How many years was the last time it was raised? 
14 years ago for anyone interested. So while Gov are wanting a change to EV, they are doing nothing with the lack of fuel duty increases.

It's we preach on objective, but the actions are totally in the opposite direction.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/fuel-duty-extending-the-temporary-cut-in-rates-to-march-2025/extension-to-the-cut-in-fuel-duty-rates-to-march-2025

Raising VED effects everyone with a vehicle.

Apart from those exempt for whatever reason - ancient cars, disabled drivers, etc.

You're getting the jist of what this PPM is about.

VED operates on a sliding scale, from those that are exempt to those that pay the highest bands.
But they all paid some form on mileage based tax via fuel duty, until recently that is.

That VED at the moment is unlikely to change with the exemption of being increased periodically or groups being added or removed from the exemption list. (something done recently when they removed EV's from the exemption list).
Even though you or your vehicle might be exempt, you still have to go through the process of "Taxing" your vehicle even though you may pay nowt.

Now that there are vehicles on the road that pay little or no mileage based taxation that some other drivers pay via fuel duty, the government want to introduce a system to recover that stream of revenue.

They won't want to move that burden to another group, of course they want EV ownership to look attractive, but they can't just increase fuel duty for those that pay it to cover that decreasing fuel duty revenue scheme.
Even the government know they can't squeeze billions out of the last man standing!
 
It's self defeating as we move towards zero emission, sooner or later there would be no revenue and in the meantime, inflation would rocket as the cost of goods would increase as almost everything you need and buy is moved by fuel with duty on it at the moment.

So the plan is to create a mileage based revenue stream and introduce it to those that don't pay the current one.
A large proportion of which used to pay the fuel duty anyway with previous vehicles. They just think they've had a break from it for a while.

This doesn't mean that's the end of it though.
Any PPM scheme would certainly be a blanket scheme that can cover everything/everyone and then make exemptions and sliding scales that they can turn on and off and change up and down at will.

They won't build a tap that only drips, they will build a tap that can be made to gush by turning it up and down at will.

So whatever scheme will cover everyone just with exemptions that they can change.
I have no doubt a driver of a fossil fuel vehicle will be covered in any laws and regulations introduced regarding PPM but might be exempt or on the lower end of a sliding scale while they continue to pay fuel duty.

As for foreign vehicles on our roads, that could be covered with a simple "vignette" system.
A daily, weekly, monthly ticket displayed in the windscreen but we might find ourselves getting into a tit for tat argument that might again push up prices of imported goods.

facade

Goudy said:

You're getting the jist of what this PPM is about.

VED operates on a sliding scale, from those that are exempt to those that pay the highest bands.
But they all paid some form on mileage based tax via fuel duty, until recently that is.

That VED at the moment is unlikely to change with the exemption of being increased periodically or groups being added or removed from the exemption list. (something done recently when they removed EV's from the exemption list).
Even though you or your vehicle might be exempt, you still have to go through the process of "Taxing" your vehicle even though you may pay nowt.

Now that there are vehicles on the road that pay little or no mileage based taxation that some other drivers pay via fuel duty, the government want to introduce a system to recover that stream of revenue.

They won't want to move that burden to another group, of course they want EV ownership to look attractive, but they can't just increase fuel duty for those that pay it to cover that decreasing fuel duty revenue scheme.
Even the government know they can't squeeze billions out of the last man standing!
 
It's self defeating as we move towards zero emission, sooner or later there would be no revenue and in the meantime, inflation would rocket as the cost of goods would increase as almost everything you need and buy is moved by fuel with duty on it at the moment.

So the plan is to create a mileage based revenue stream and introduce it to those that don't pay the current one.
A large proportion of which used to pay the fuel duty anyway with previous vehicles. They just think they've had a break from it for a while.

This doesn't mean that's the end of it though.
Any PPM scheme would certainly be a blanket scheme that can cover everything/everyone and then make exemptions and sliding scales that they can turn on and off and change up and down at will.

They won't build a tap that only drips, they will build a tap that can be made to gush by turning it up and down at will.

So whatever scheme will cover everyone just with exemptions that they can change.
I have no doubt a driver of a fossil fuel vehicle will be covered in any laws and regulations introduced regarding PPM but might be exempt or on the lower end of a sliding scale while they continue to pay fuel duty.

As for foreign vehicles on our roads, that could be covered with a simple "vignette" system.
A daily, weekly, monthly ticket displayed in the windscreen but we might find ourselves getting into a tit for tat argument that might again push up prices of imported goods.

I think the point that people are missing is that fuel duty and PPM have only a very slight link with funding the roads, they are just another form of general taxation on British citizens (with the advantage that "they" can tax visitors from abroad with fuel duty) 

So if "they" are raising tax on the miles driven by a British registered car (which effectively means from a British Citizen, as visitors run around on foreign 'plates and don't have to register with DVLA for 6 months) then it is immaterial whether the mileage was accrued inside the British Isles, abroad, on a rolling road without moving, or even on your own private land, quarry, building site etc. 

Your tamperproof* Government approved odometer increases by 10,000 miles, you pay £300 tax. It isn't a tax for using the roads, it is a tax for being a UK taxpayer and doing something measurable that can be taxed. (Most Governments have long dreamed of taxing you on the air that you breathe- one day it will happen)

Now you could just buy a foreign registered car, but if a British citizen dares to drive a foreign registered car within the UK it is already an offence.

The only way round it (and have a car that moves) will be to join the millions of unregistered (untaxed & un-insured too) cars, so cloning will become eve more commonplace than it is already.

(* tampering with the odometer will be an offence punishable by a minimum 99 years hard labour- ironically road building )

MouldyOldDough

Car_54 said:

Goudy said:

born_again said:

Goudy said:

paul_c123 said:

MattMattMattUK said:

It seems that every time there is a long term strategic shift in consumption or usage the government seeks to complicate the tax system rather than simplify it. 

It would make sense as we want people to transition away from ICE vehicles to stick 10p a litre on petrol and diesel this year and then raise it with inflation plus or 5p a year until it is phased out, that should solve the revenue until at least 2040. It probably also makes sense to increase VED ahead of inflation for the next decade or two, maybe 10% a year on all levels. Long term a 3-4 times increase of VED should cover the revenue needed, moving to a model based on vehicle weight, with any difference made up via general taxation. 

You can't just tax diesel because the UK Transport sector will be severely affected - and try to pass its costs onto its customers (which is everybody).

You can't just tax fossil fuels as there would need another scheme when fossil fuelled vehicles are all gone.

The PPM, however it comes about will be introduced on EV's.
So to start with there will be some form of PPM tax applied to EV mileage.
That doesn't mean that is the end of it.

If it was a scheme linked to say charging and electricity supply, then the government can't switch it on for the fossil fuel cars still on the road.

Yes it looks like we'll all end up in some sort of electric vehicle, but between now and then there are millions of other vehicles doing billions of miles a year.

Whatever scheme is introduced, it will certainly be able to capture everything and it will be only a short time before they decide to include it for other forms of propulsion.

There is no need for PBM at all.
VED can simply be increased instead. Just like they do now.

On the fuel duty point. How many years was the last time it was raised? 
14 years ago for anyone interested. So while Gov are wanting a change to EV, they are doing nothing with the lack of fuel duty increases.

It's we preach on objective, but the actions are totally in the opposite direction.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/fuel-duty-extending-the-temporary-cut-in-rates-to-march-2025/extension-to-the-cut-in-fuel-duty-rates-to-march-2025

Raising VED effects everyone with a vehicle.

Apart from those exempt for whatever reason - ancient cars, disabled drivers, etc.

NOT  "disabled drivers" - that makes it look as if ALL disabled drivers get a waiver

You can apply for exemption from paying vehicle tax if you get the:

• higher rate mobility component of Disability Living Allowance (DLA)
• enhanced rate mobility component of Personal Independence Payment (PIP)
• enhanced rate mobility component of Adult Disability Payment (ADP)
• Scottish Adult Disability Living Allowance
• higher rate mobility component of Child Disability Payment
• War Pensioners’ Mobility Supplement
• Armed Forces Independence Payment

TooManyPoints

I think the point that people are missing is that fuel duty and PPM have only a very slight link with funding the roads, they are just another form of general taxation on British citizens ...

Which is what I tried explaining a couple of days ago.

It doesn't matter where the miles are done. The government will not make special arrangements for the very small minority of drivers who drive abroad occasionally. If your car is driven for n miles you will pay n times x pence. Job done. The only debate will surround whether n is either measured, calculated or assessed and how.

Grey_Critic

You currently drive a vehicle that uses either Petrol or Diesel - Do you get the various taxes/duties refunded?  Government has decided to ban vehicles using those fuels and replace them with Electric powered vehicles.

 Currently EVs do not pay specific taxes on their fuel (Electricity) but the government has decided that it cannot afford to give up the TaxTake they currently enjoy from petrol and diesel and have decided that they will replace it with a mileage charge. The suggested charge is Three Pence per mile but that is simply the Starter Rate- once it is in operation it will no doubt increase. Remember that EVs enjoyed not having to pay for A Road Fund Licence, which has now changed. I notice that it cost the government £30 million when people re-registered their vehicles earlier this year to postpone the RF Licence.

Suggesting that disabled drivers should not have to pay a mileage charge is just wilful thinking.

daveincambridge

Toll the motorways, scrap vehicle duty, keep fuel duty (pollution) and no ppm for EVs. People appear to always be in a hurry so will take the hit on the tolls rather dawdle on the non toll roads. Subsiding the railways further would help.

born_again

daveincambridge said:

Toll the motorways, scrap vehicle duty, keep fuel duty (pollution) and no ppm for EVs. People appear to always be in a hurry so will take the hit on the tolls rather dawdle on the non toll roads. Subsiding the railways further would help.

You need to be aware, that some roads are not under public ownership & the gov pay private companies per vehicle on these & the company maintains the road. Of course the company is making a killing on these roads. More great fiscal policy from the people in charge.

MouldyOldDough

daveincambridge said:

Toll the motorways, scrap vehicle duty, keep fuel duty (pollution) and no ppm for EVs. People appear to always be in a hurry so will take the hit on the tolls rather dawdle on the non toll roads. Subsiding the railways further would help.

But EV's pollute at least as much as ICE - during manufacture and final disposal

Ectophile

MouldyOldDough said:

daveincambridge said:

Toll the motorways, scrap vehicle duty, keep fuel duty (pollution) and no ppm for EVs. People appear to always be in a hurry so will take the hit on the tolls rather dawdle on the non toll roads. Subsiding the railways further would help.

But EV's pollute at least as much as ICE - during manufacture and final disposal

EVs can be recycled like any other car.  The battery can be re-used if it's any good, or recycled if not.  There's lots of valuable minerals in the battery.

Making the battery uses a lot of natural resources.  But after a few tens of thousands of miles, that's paid off by the reduction in pollution running the car.  That's especially so in the UK where we have no coal fired power stations.

You shouldn't just look at tailpipe emissions.  Petrol and diesel don't magically appear in the fuel pump.