EV pay per mile - disabled drivers

Exodi

facade said:

Mildly_Miffed said:

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There's no way to charge any kind of duty on electricity for road use, either.

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A levy on "EV" tarifs (being careful not to kill the Golden Goose, the "EV" tariff plus levy must still be cheaper than domestic rate)

A levy on public charging

Smart chargers snitch on the amount of energy transferred if you are trying to "get away" with an economy 7 type tariff for charging, so it is easy to levy the tax whatever tariff you are on, and even if you charge from a solar charged powerbank or your own little hydroelectric/wind/steam plant!

Smart meters snitch all the time, and they can simply levy on the estimated charge based on load and time, then put the onus on you to prove 6 hours of continuous 32A load was used for night storage or charging a powerbank.

Granny charger users without smart meters may "dodge" the tax, but these tend to be the sub 2000 miles per year drivers, who wouldn't pay extra under the proposed honour mileage system  anyway.

There are a few problems I can think of off the top of my head:

There are many people on these tariffs who don't have an EV to charge batteries at cheap overnight rate (though I appreciate you're supposed to have an EV).

I think it's optimistic to think that there will be a clever system analysing load to decide whether to charge the levy or not. It's also pretty easy for me to change the current limit from 32A if I wanted. If it was based on total consumption (e.g. most battery installations might go up to, what, 15kWh), then there's nothing stopping me setting a charging limit of 15kWh and charging it more often.

If it's on home EV chargers to dob you in, then as you say, people will considering using granny chargers. A granny charger will usually charge at 2.2kw, Eon Next (as an example) offers 6 hours of cheap charging per night = 13.2kWh. Even at 3 miles per kWh that's 52.8 miles of charging a night, or nearly 20,000 a year (certainly not sub 2,000). While I've heard it's not great for the battery or the charger, many EV's are company leases where people would not care. Depending on the levy, I would consider it.

"A levy on public charging" scared me. While I totally agree they'd obviously need to levy it here as well, considering the outrageous public charging costs already, we'd likely see prices of £1/kWh. Insane.

Grumpy_chap

Exodi said:

"A levy on public charging" scared me. While I totally agree they'd obviously need to levy it here as well, considering the outrageous public charging costs already, we'd likely see prices of £1/kWh. Insane.

Or not.

Whenever I have done the maths, the cost of paid-for EV public charging seems to work out at about the same ppm as fuel for an ICE would cost ppm.

I have long suspected that the charge rates at EV public charging is nothing to do with the cost of energy or the cost of the infrastructure, but priced to what the market will bear.  No, obviously, the ICE fuel as ppm includes a massive amount of duty paid to the Government.  The cost of EV public charging does not so that equivalent value is currently going to the service provider.

It may well be possible that the effect of a levy on paid-for EV public charging would be absorbed in the market-pricing still at the same ppm as petrol / diesel.

DrEskimo

Bigphil1474 said:

I think he means that the cost to the UK road network of those miles is zero, so why should there be any tax associated with that oversees mileage. 

Personally, I can't see it happening. Takes far too much organising, and I can't see any government department being able to implement any workable solution. If they need more tax from EV's just increase EV VED. I think it's missing the point though. Most EV users are using electricity overnight, so helping the electricity generating companies out, and are reducing air pollution and reducing climate changing emissions. That's worth losing the revenue form fossil fuels to me. 

Somewhat ironic as well given that EVs have the majority of their CO2 output at the manufacturing stage, whereas for ICE it is during the 'use' stage. So high mileage EV owners are able to offset their initial CO2 production quicker.

Where historically VED was used very much to drive buying behaviour in the direction of lower CO2, this implementation seems to be almost punishing it!

Goudy

There are already pre paid systems being used that are nothing more that badges displayed in windscreens or tickets bought from shops.

The previously mentioned RUC system in New Zealand requires you to buy a "RUC" in multiples of 1000kms and display it in the windscreen.

Does this display of a ticket in a windscreen sound familiar?

Several countries use the ticket (vignette) system for various road pricing schemes.

Then of course there are already electronic systems in use.
Dedicated short range communication systems (DSRC) are a direct wireless communication system with all sorts of applications.
It's can be used as a vehicle to everything system and vehicle to network which could go beyond tolls and road pricing as it can communicate with traffic signals and electronic signs and even other road users for things like forward collision warnings and cooperative cruise control. Then there's parking payments and so on.

We already use this tech in certain areas, like buses opening bollards to pass through and of course other countries like Sweden and Norway already use it for tolls and road pricing.

I read a while ago Singapore were also planning to roll it out for their road pricing scheme.

There are now multi mobile communication partnerships that have been working on multiple communication protocols, so one device being able to use all/any communication system.

Now with any cumulative charge, a system doesn't need to be in constant contact.
It just needs to collect and store data to upload at some point in the future, so being "out in the sticks" isn't a problem.
You'd need to come back into civilisation at some point, you just place receivers where people go in their cars, like MOT stations, car parks, supermarkets and hey here's an idea, put them on chargers!

facade

The advantage of an electricity levy is that Someone Else has to make it work and implement it (just like VAT) and all HMRC have to do is count the money, and send the odd inspector out to check whenever their AI suggests that someone is on the fiddle. Even if we can dodge the tax for 50% of our use, then "they" are still gaining billions on the 50% we will pay tax on compared to the zero tax that we pay now.

As to reverting to granny charging from a smart charger, when it was installed the installer had to dob you in to the Distribution Network Operator, so that they can make sure their wires are thick enough or something, so "they" only need to put 2 & 2 together over any continual load registered by your smart meter when you are registered for a charger and charge you tax. (Then if you can prove it was a fan heater running all night you can claim it back, simply by supplying proof and submitting a 47 page form countersigned by your GP and 3 Magistrates.)

If you are using a cheap night rate to charge a powerbank, then you can pay the same tax as if it were charging an EV, "they" just need to get a bit more creative over the name of the tax! (battery charging tax?) you'd still be winning on the cost over paying domestic rate.

Exodi

Grumpy_chap said:

Exodi said:

"A levy on public charging" scared me. While I totally agree they'd obviously need to levy it here as well, considering the outrageous public charging costs already, we'd likely see prices of £1/kWh. Insane.

Or not.

Whenever I have done the maths, the cost of paid-for EV public charging seems to work out at about the same ppm as fuel for an ICE would cost ppm.

I didn't get anywhere close when I did the maths but I guess it depends on the public charging rate or efficiency. 

Analysis I'd done in the past got the ppm for an ICE vehicle at 13-15p (though this obviously depends on the vehicle and the price of fuel, I'm sure a big BMW or something would cost more). The AFR is loosely around this so it seems close enough. If we assume we fuelled at a motorway, where the fuel is about 20% more expensive than usual, we it might bump us to ~17ppm

Then assuming 3 miles per kwh (though more in the summer and less in the winter - you can argue higher if your car is particularly efficient) means ~50p/kwh at a public charger is a breakeven.

Unfortunately this is hard to find in this day and age and when on a long drive, unless I fancy detouring into a small town, the motorway EV charges almost always charge 85p/kWh. This puts it at ~28ppm, 65% more than ICE.

However there's so many variables (obviously it massive depends on the vehicles you are comparing, a tiny ICE car compared to a big EV might swing it the other way) or if you had access to cheap public charging rates (seemingly a myth in the south east).

Grumpy_chap said:

It may well be possible that the effect of a levy on paid-for EV public charging would be absorbed in the market-pricing still at the same ppm as petrol / diesel.

I certainly hope so, I'd rather push my car down the M25 than pay any more for public charging on their services.

paul_c123

I predict every home charger from this point onwards will need to be a "series 2" charger which sends data back to the electricity company on how much charge its put into an electric car, together with laws making it illegal to tamper with its installation and seals around the case, similar to electricity meters. Cue a stampede for "series 1" dumb and granny chargers from the likes of Screwfix etc. And the rise of charging at home with granny chargers.

matt_drummer

facade said:

If you are using a cheap night rate to charge a powerbank, then you can pay the same tax as if it were charging an EV, "they" just need to get a bit more creative over the name of the tax! (battery charging tax?) you'd still be winning on the cost over paying domestic rate.

Probably not?

To charge batteries and win as you call it, you have to buy the batteries. That may make the installation uneconomic. Always a risk of course, but making something non viable by adding taxes to only some people's domestic energy costs is probably not workable.

Also, how much are you going to add per kWh?

12p assuming 4 miles per kWh .

Adding in charging and discharging losses, that would make home battery storage more expensive than standard electricity, and you had to buy batteries to do it!

facade

matt_drummer said:

facade said:

If you are using a cheap night rate to charge a powerbank, then you can pay the same tax as if it were charging an EV, "they" just need to get a bit more creative over the name of the tax! (battery charging tax?) you'd still be winning on the cost over paying domestic rate.

Probably not?

To charge batteries and win as you call it, you have to buy the batteries. That may make the installation uneconomic. Always a risk of course, but making something non viable by adding taxes to only some people's domestic energy costs is probably not workable.

Also, how much are you going to add per kWh?

12p assuming 4 miles per kWh .

Adding in charging and discharging losses, that would make home battery storage more expensive than standard electricity, and you had to buy batteries to do it!

And the problem for HMRC or HMG is?????

Again, a you problem, not theirs.

So our single remaining power station cannot supply the daytime load on a dull calm day if everyone currently loadshifting with a powerbank doesn't bother- again not an HMRC problem, it is entirely the fault of the (privatised) electricity generation & supply network. (Who spent their colossal profits on shareholder dividends and executive's salaries rather than investment in plant)

(As long as there is someone to blame that isn't HMG, and preferably is already etched in the public consciousness as a profiteering fat-cat, then There Is No Problem)

matt_drummer

facade said:

matt_drummer said:

facade said:

If you are using a cheap night rate to charge a powerbank, then you can pay the same tax as if it were charging an EV, "they" just need to get a bit more creative over the name of the tax! (battery charging tax?) you'd still be winning on the cost over paying domestic rate.

Probably not?

To charge batteries and win as you call it, you have to buy the batteries. That may make the installation uneconomic. Always a risk of course, but making something non viable by adding taxes to only some people's domestic energy costs is probably not workable.

Also, how much are you going to add per kWh?

12p assuming 4 miles per kWh .

Adding in charging and discharging losses, that would make home battery storage more expensive than standard electricity, and you had to buy batteries to do it!

And the problem for HMRC or HMG is?????

Again, a you problem, not theirs.

So our single remaining power station cannot supply the daytime load on a dull calm day if everyone currently loadshifting with a powerbank doesn't bother- again not an HMRC problem, it is entirely the fault of the (privatised) electricity generation & supply network. (Who spent their colossal profits on shareholder dividends and executive's salaries rather than investment in plant)

(As long as there is someone to blame that isn't HMG, and preferably is already etched in the public consciousness as a profiteering fat-cat, then There Is No Problem)

The problem is that you said battery owners would still be winning, they wouldn't be so your claim was incorrect.

I never mentioned HMRC or HMG or that it wouldn't happen.

I just wanted to point out that your claim of still winning was rubbish!