EV pay per mile - disabled drivers

WellKnownSid

MattMattMattUK said:

It seems that every time there is a long term strategic shift in consumption or usage the government seeks to complicate the tax system rather than simplify it. 

paul_c123 said:

You can't just tax diesel because the UK Transport sector will be severely affected - and try to pass its costs onto its customers (which is everybody).

The reason we "can't just do something" is because governments are weak as ditch water and so don't want to upset fickle voters.  They seek opinion on policy through 'leaks' made to the popular press and then follow up by introducing something not-quite-so-bad where everyone breathes a huge sigh of relief because it could have been worse.

This environment attracts complicated solutions.  Just like mobile phone tariffs - the harder you make it with bundles of minutes, texts, GB of data, free roaming, WiFi, subscriptions to Gardeners' Weekly, etc the harder you make it to figure out just how much better or worse off you are.  Better to give people a tax in "pence per mile" which very few people will understand.

As an EV owner I think 3p is fair - it's less than the 4p per mile of fuel duty diesel owners will be paying on their 60mpg diesel car but enough to stop the whining from some quarters that EV owners don't pay their way / it isn't fair blah blah.  If it comes in by 2028 (if...) we will have saved roughly £9k in fuel costs over five years (and significantly more in terms of household electricity) so can't really grumble at 3p.

Bigphil1474

TooManyPoints said:

I think he means that the cost to the UK road network of those miles is zero, so why should there be any tax associated with that oversees mileage. 

Neither VED nor fuel duty are "ring fenced" to pay for the road network. Both are simply an aspect of general taxation. Drivers already pay fuel duty on mileage driven abroad. Whatever fuel they have on board when they arrive overseas has had UK fuel duty levied on it.

The duties are simply taxes levied on people who run vehicles. If one of them is calculated from the number of miles driven, it is neither here nor there where those miles are covered.

I know how VED and fuel duty work thanks. But you are wrong to say that drivers already pay fuel duty on mileage driven abroad - it's only the first miles they drive until they fill the tank up again. You could drive a thousand miles in Europe in an ICE car and make no contribution to the UK tax pot, but in an EV you'd be expected to pay tax on those 1,000 miles, (in the circumstances described), hence the point made.

Herzlos

Bigphil1474 said:

TooManyPoints said:

I know how VED and fuel duty work thanks. But you are wrong to say that drivers already pay fuel duty on mileage driven abroad - it's only the first miles they drive until they fill the tank up again. You could drive a thousand miles in Europe in an ICE car and make no contribution to the UK tax pot, but in an EV you'd be expected to pay tax on those 1,000 miles, (in the circumstances described), hence the point made.

There'd be no reason you couldn't make some kind of mileage tax adjustment, where you get your mileage stamped on the way out and again on the way back in to deduct from your bill. 

But I suspect most people aren't going to bother with the hassle especially if there are any charges associated with doing it. 

There's ~34.5 million cars in the UK and only 0.25 million trips into Europe by UK registered private vehicles (2.85m goods vehicles), which is virtually none (0.7%) even assuming no-one is making multiple trips. 

I can't find any figures for how many miles those vehicles tend to do in Europe though, but even at 3p/mile and 1000 mile trips that's a £30 difference and I suspect a lot of people wouldn't want to queue up at customs to adjust the tax for that. 

Goudy

paul_c123 said:

MattMattMattUK said:

It seems that every time there is a long term strategic shift in consumption or usage the government seeks to complicate the tax system rather than simplify it. 

It would make sense as we want people to transition away from ICE vehicles to stick 10p a litre on petrol and diesel this year and then raise it with inflation plus or 5p a year until it is phased out, that should solve the revenue until at least 2040. It probably also makes sense to increase VED ahead of inflation for the next decade or two, maybe 10% a year on all levels. Long term a 3-4 times increase of VED should cover the revenue needed, moving to a model based on vehicle weight, with any difference made up via general taxation. 

You can't just tax diesel because the UK Transport sector will be severely affected - and try to pass its costs onto its customers (which is everybody).

You can't just tax fossil fuels as there would need another scheme when fossil fuelled vehicles are all gone.

The PPM, however it comes about will be introduced on EV's.
So to start with there will be some form of PPM tax applied to EV mileage.
That doesn't mean that is the end of it.

If it was a scheme linked to say charging and electricity supply, then the government can't switch it on for the fossil fuel cars still on the road.

Yes it looks like we'll all end up in some sort of electric vehicle, but between now and then there are millions of other vehicles doing billions of miles a year.

Whatever scheme is introduced, it will certainly be able to capture everything and it will be only a short time before they decide to include it for other forms of propulsion.

born_again

Goudy said:

paul_c123 said:

MattMattMattUK said:

It seems that every time there is a long term strategic shift in consumption or usage the government seeks to complicate the tax system rather than simplify it. 

It would make sense as we want people to transition away from ICE vehicles to stick 10p a litre on petrol and diesel this year and then raise it with inflation plus or 5p a year until it is phased out, that should solve the revenue until at least 2040. It probably also makes sense to increase VED ahead of inflation for the next decade or two, maybe 10% a year on all levels. Long term a 3-4 times increase of VED should cover the revenue needed, moving to a model based on vehicle weight, with any difference made up via general taxation. 

You can't just tax diesel because the UK Transport sector will be severely affected - and try to pass its costs onto its customers (which is everybody).

You can't just tax fossil fuels as there would need another scheme when fossil fuelled vehicles are all gone.

The PPM, however it comes about will be introduced on EV's.
So to start with there will be some form of PPM tax applied to EV mileage.
That doesn't mean that is the end of it.

If it was a scheme linked to say charging and electricity supply, then the government can't switch it on for the fossil fuel cars still on the road.

Yes it looks like we'll all end up in some sort of electric vehicle, but between now and then there are millions of other vehicles doing billions of miles a year.

Whatever scheme is introduced, it will certainly be able to capture everything and it will be only a short time before they decide to include it for other forms of propulsion.

There is no need for PBM at all.
VED can simply be increased instead. Just like they do now.

On the fuel duty point. How many years was the last time it was raised? 
14 years ago for anyone interested. So while Gov are wanting a change to EV, they are doing nothing with the lack of fuel duty increases.

It's we preach on objective, but the actions are totally in the opposite direction.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/fuel-duty-extending-the-temporary-cut-in-rates-to-march-2025/extension-to-the-cut-in-fuel-duty-rates-to-march-2025

Goudy

born_again said:

Goudy said:

paul_c123 said:

MattMattMattUK said:

It seems that every time there is a long term strategic shift in consumption or usage the government seeks to complicate the tax system rather than simplify it. 

It would make sense as we want people to transition away from ICE vehicles to stick 10p a litre on petrol and diesel this year and then raise it with inflation plus or 5p a year until it is phased out, that should solve the revenue until at least 2040. It probably also makes sense to increase VED ahead of inflation for the next decade or two, maybe 10% a year on all levels. Long term a 3-4 times increase of VED should cover the revenue needed, moving to a model based on vehicle weight, with any difference made up via general taxation. 

You can't just tax diesel because the UK Transport sector will be severely affected - and try to pass its costs onto its customers (which is everybody).

You can't just tax fossil fuels as there would need another scheme when fossil fuelled vehicles are all gone.

The PPM, however it comes about will be introduced on EV's.
So to start with there will be some form of PPM tax applied to EV mileage.
That doesn't mean that is the end of it.

If it was a scheme linked to say charging and electricity supply, then the government can't switch it on for the fossil fuel cars still on the road.

Yes it looks like we'll all end up in some sort of electric vehicle, but between now and then there are millions of other vehicles doing billions of miles a year.

Whatever scheme is introduced, it will certainly be able to capture everything and it will be only a short time before they decide to include it for other forms of propulsion.

There is no need for PBM at all.
VED can simply be increased instead. Just like they do now.

On the fuel duty point. How many years was the last time it was raised? 
14 years ago for anyone interested. So while Gov are wanting a change to EV, they are doing nothing with the lack of fuel duty increases.

It's we preach on objective, but the actions are totally in the opposite direction.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/fuel-duty-extending-the-temporary-cut-in-rates-to-march-2025/extension-to-the-cut-in-fuel-duty-rates-to-march-2025

Raising VED effects everyone with a vehicle.

Why should someone who does 3 or 4 thousand miles a year pay the same replacement for lost fuel duty as those the do 20 or 30 thousand a year.

As there's a big black whole in the governments purse, maybe we should all pay 40% or even the 45% tax rate  no matter what we earn. Why are only some paying it when they could get everyone to pay it.
Because it's not fair maybe?

As I said, there is no need to increase fuel duty. 
There is a possibility in might come down as whatever PPM scheme is introduced, you can be certain it won't stay as EV only for long.

Give it a year or two and it'll cover everything on the road.

A PPM scheme isn't about moving a tax burden to someone else, it's about replacing a lost revenue from those that they lost it from. 

MouldyOldDough

Herzlos said:

Bigphil1474 said:

TooManyPoints said:

I know how VED and fuel duty work thanks. But you are wrong to say that drivers already pay fuel duty on mileage driven abroad - it's only the first miles they drive until they fill the tank up again. You could drive a thousand miles in Europe in an ICE car and make no contribution to the UK tax pot, but in an EV you'd be expected to pay tax on those 1,000 miles, (in the circumstances described), hence the point made.

There'd be no reason you couldn't make some kind of mileage tax adjustment, where you get your mileage stamped on the way out and again on the way back in to deduct from your bill. 

But I suspect most people aren't going to bother with the hassle especially if there are any charges associated with doing it. 

There's ~34.5 million cars in the UK and only 0.25 million trips into Europe by UK registered private vehicles (2.85m goods vehicles), which is virtually none (0.7%) even assuming no-one is making multiple trips. 

I can't find any figures for how many miles those vehicles tend to do in Europe though, but even at 3p/mile and 1000 mile trips that's a £30 difference and I suspect a lot of people wouldn't want to queue up at customs to adjust the tax for that. 

There are 41.7 million licensed vehicles in UK - according to https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/vehicle-licensing-statistics-2024/vehicle-licensing-statistics-united-kingdom-2024?utm_source=chatgpt.com

What about the 1.5 - 2.0 million per annum, foreign drivers - how can we screw them for funds ?

If 5 million UK vehicles travel to Europe annually, and each vehicle drives an average of 500 miles per trip (considering longer holidays, road trips, and cross-border driving), we get an estimate of around 5,000,000 cars × 500 miles = 2.5 billion miles annually driven by UK‑registered vehicles in Europe.

This number could be higher or lower depending on the length of stay, travel frequency, and trip type (holiday vs. business)..

UK to EU Travel:

• In 2019, there were approximately 4.5 million vehicles (including cars, trucks, and buses) crossing the Channel between the UK and mainland Europe, according to Eurotunnel figures.

• While not all these were UK‑registered cars, a significant portion would have been.

Total Miles Driven:

• A ballpark estimate suggests that UK‑registered cars might travel anywhere from 50 to 150 miles per day, depending on the trip length and region. If we use a midpoint of 100 miles per day driven by UK vehicles on the continent, we can estimate how many miles UK cars might collectively drive during their visits.

Betterthanlife

Mildly_Miffed said:

It's all pure speculation, and you only need a quick glance at which quarters of the media are doing the speculating...

Long term, road pricing is the only thing that makes any kind of sense. Fuel duty raises £25bn/year in the UK. That is falling both in actual value (£27bn in 2010) and in real terms - inflation has taken that 2010 £27bn to £42bn real value today. VED is trivial in comparison, £9bn/year.

Fuel duty per litre has been fixed at 59p/litre since 2010 (inflation alone would have it at 92p/litre) - so about 6p/mile at 45mpg - and people are moving to EVs rapidly, which have zero duty paid on fuel. Also, average mileage has fallen since the pandemic.
There's no way to charge any kind of duty on electricity for road use, either.
Anything relying on owner-reporting is utterly intrinsically flawed.

The only way to do any kind of reliable, equitable road-pricing is using roadside ANPR infrastructure... and that is a VERY long way off in the real world.

Rough numbers - there's a quarter of a million miles of roads in the UK.
1% are motorways.
2.2% are centrally managed trunk A roads.

10% are local-authority managed non-trunk A roads.

7.5% are B roads.
The remaining 200,000 miles are C and unclassified roads. Much of that distance is in places with poor cellular comms.

Unless EVERY mile of EVERY road is covered, you're just going to move traffic from the main road network onto the back roads - the exact opposite of what should be encouraged.

So the big question... how on earth is that going to be implemented in any kind of reasonable timescale...?

I'm sure you know most modern cars including ev's have telematics built in and often send back information on location, mileage, etc, etc. to the car manufacturers to help make improvements. I get an email from the manufacturer to tell me my car needs a service based on real-time data. I don't think it would be a great leap for the government to also tap into this information, and as you mention its worth £25b pa so the government isnt just going to walk away from it

Grumpy_chap

Goudy said:

Raising VED effects everyone with a vehicle.

Except vehicles registered abroad.

Goudy said:

There is a possibility in might come down as whatever PPM scheme is introduced, you can be certain it won't stay as EV only for long.

Give it a year or two and it'll cover everything on the road.

Unlike VED, one might suspect that a PPM levy would also cover vehicles registered abroad.
Other countries have processes for charging foreign vehicles for road use, so why wouldn't the same happen here?

Car_54

Goudy said:

born_again said:

Goudy said:

paul_c123 said:

MattMattMattUK said:

It seems that every time there is a long term strategic shift in consumption or usage the government seeks to complicate the tax system rather than simplify it. 

It would make sense as we want people to transition away from ICE vehicles to stick 10p a litre on petrol and diesel this year and then raise it with inflation plus or 5p a year until it is phased out, that should solve the revenue until at least 2040. It probably also makes sense to increase VED ahead of inflation for the next decade or two, maybe 10% a year on all levels. Long term a 3-4 times increase of VED should cover the revenue needed, moving to a model based on vehicle weight, with any difference made up via general taxation. 

You can't just tax diesel because the UK Transport sector will be severely affected - and try to pass its costs onto its customers (which is everybody).

You can't just tax fossil fuels as there would need another scheme when fossil fuelled vehicles are all gone.

The PPM, however it comes about will be introduced on EV's.
So to start with there will be some form of PPM tax applied to EV mileage.
That doesn't mean that is the end of it.

If it was a scheme linked to say charging and electricity supply, then the government can't switch it on for the fossil fuel cars still on the road.

Yes it looks like we'll all end up in some sort of electric vehicle, but between now and then there are millions of other vehicles doing billions of miles a year.

Whatever scheme is introduced, it will certainly be able to capture everything and it will be only a short time before they decide to include it for other forms of propulsion.

There is no need for PBM at all.
VED can simply be increased instead. Just like they do now.

On the fuel duty point. How many years was the last time it was raised? 
14 years ago for anyone interested. So while Gov are wanting a change to EV, they are doing nothing with the lack of fuel duty increases.

It's we preach on objective, but the actions are totally in the opposite direction.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/fuel-duty-extending-the-temporary-cut-in-rates-to-march-2025/extension-to-the-cut-in-fuel-duty-rates-to-march-2025

Raising VED effects everyone with a vehicle.

Apart from those exempt for whatever reason - ancient cars, disabled drivers, etc.