EV pay per mile - disabled drivers

Mildly_Miffed

shinytop said:

I don't see why it can't be linked to MOTs.

Apart from the minor detail that new cars aren't MOTd for three years, and cars over 40yo aren't MOTd.

Oh, and it doesn't affect foreign registered vehicles. Or allow for mileage covered outside the UK.

And it's really easy to reduce - sorry, "correct" - the mileage, even on modern cars.

Then there's imports with km odometers, or digital dashes with switchable odometers, which have been known to regularly confuse MOT testers.

Grumpy_chap

MouldyOldDough said:

if PPM is implemented by the government 

Honest John says it won't happen:
Here's why EV pay-per-mile WON'T be in the November budget | Tax & Insurance | Honest John

Goudy

paul_c123 said:

Everything could, can be done with technology, and is already being done for HGV Tachographs. They have a facility to be interrogated by DVSA wirelessly (a variant of long distance bluetooth) and also record GPS position as well as date/time, driving hours, driver, etc. However a digital tacho costs about £800 and then there's the installation.

Any similar device doesn't need to collect, store and transmit the same data as hgv tacho's do, so a simpler, cheaper design could be used.

The government could also offset some of the costs from the initial bill.

With regards to changing the tax system generally to make EV usage tax free and placing the burden elsewhere, it's not what the government have in mind no matter what everyone thinks would be better or suit them personally.

It's already public knowledge that they want to introduce a pay per mile scheme for EV's and I'm sure that will be confirmed in the next budget.
There have been no leaks of any other plans to replace fuel duty unfortunately.

paul_c123

Goudy said:

paul_c123 said:

Everything could, can be done with technology, and is already being done for HGV Tachographs. They have a facility to be interrogated by DVSA wirelessly (a variant of long distance bluetooth) and also record GPS position as well as date/time, driving hours, driver, etc. However a digital tacho costs about £800 and then there's the installation.

Any similar device doesn't need to collect, store and transmit the same data as hgv tacho's do, so a simpler, cheaper design could be used.

The government could also offset some of the costs from the initial bill.

With regards to changing the tax system generally to make EV usage tax free and placing the burden elsewhere, it's not what the government have in mind no matter what everyone thinks would be better or suit them personally.

It's already public knowledge that they want to introduce a pay per mile scheme for EV's and I'm sure that will be confirmed in the next budget.
There have been no leaks of any other plans to replace fuel duty unfortunately.

I suspect economy of scale would come into it too (many more cars than HGVs) but still there's the whole infrastructure surrounding secure installation, laws relating to tampering, calibration, etc. Sure it could/would log less but would still need to store then transmit (or there be some mechanism for the data to be propagated to a central database - I suspect this will be done by wireless, since there would be no digi card, no transport managers overseeing a fleet and no requirement for drivers to periodically download their card at work.

Tacho wireless connectivity is short range. If a similar thing were used by EVs, it would mean a network of roadside transceivers and a very high speed data link or some clever mechanism to cope with short bursts of fragmented data from several interrogations collated together properly. I imagine using the mobile data network would be more cost effective - rather than building an entire another network.

The obvious thing would be a plug in module to the OBD2 port but plenty of cars don't have the clearance around the socket to have a dongle fitted and the dashboard trim put back. And it would be very easy to disable there. So something else would need to be done. Which would need to be standardised. So manufacturers would need to install some other additional standardised interface into the car.

As before, I think its likely to come from price-per-unit of electricity, and all EV chargers would need to report their data using some means, rather than the cars.

There is still a significant "cost of collection" of this tax, however its done, if at all.

Grey_Critic

The current income from Fuel and VED is in excess of £35 Billion - my post stated that it was 2022 figures. That TaxTake has to be replaced and will be no matter what Honest John and everybody else might say. If the government has to spend another £35 billion to make it happen it will - remember government has no money except what they take from you or me so WE WILL be paying. There was a time the only way they could tell if a car was taxed and that meant someome physically checking it today we have ANPR - it cost a lot of OUR MONEY to do it but it is here. Never say it will never happen.

shinytop

Mildly_Miffed said:

shinytop said:

I don't see why it can't be linked to MOTs.

Apart from the minor detail that new cars aren't MOTd for three years, and cars over 40yo aren't MOTd.

Oh, and it doesn't affect foreign registered vehicles. Or allow for mileage covered outside the UK.

And it's really easy to reduce - sorry, "correct" - the mileage, even on modern cars.

Then there's imports with km odometers, or digital dashes with switchable odometers, which have been known to regularly confuse MOT testers.

Did you read all of my post or just the first sentence?  

Nobody cares about 40 yo cars, foreign cars don't pay road tax now and if an MOT tester can't record the correct mileage they need to find another job.

Goudy

Grey_Critic said:

The current income from Fuel and VED is in excess of £35 Billion - my post stated that it was 2022 figures. That TaxTake has to be replaced and will be no matter what Honest John and everybody else might say. If the government has to spend another £35 billion to make it happen it will - remember government has no money except what they take from you or me so WE WILL be paying. There was a time the only way they could tell if a car was taxed and that meant someome physically checking it today we have ANPR - it cost a lot of OUR MONEY to do it but it is here. Never say it will never happen.

Obviously no one knows for sure but it's been suggested a charge of 3p per mile is on the cards for EV drivers.
Now as a ICE driver, I want that!

With a bit of fag packet maths, 3p per mile is only half what your average ICE driver, in an average car pays in fuel duty.

Average miles is what, around 8000 miles a year and the average mpg is around 40 mpg.
So an EV would pay £240 for 8000 miles.

Fuel duty is 0.5295p on a litre.
8000 divided by 40 = 200 UK gallons.
200 x 4.54 = 908 lites
908 litres at a fuel duty rate of 0.5295p is £480.

They're not close are they? Even if this average 40 mpg for ICE cars is wrong it would have to be closer to 80 mpg to equal out.

Now it's hard to see how the government will recoup close to this £24/25 billion in fuel duty this way, not unless EV drivers double their mileage or the 3ppm doubles.
So I will stick my neck out and suggest any scheme that charges 3ppm is a "gentle" introductory approach to road pricing for EV's.

Without any intervention on this 3ppm and the pendulum swings more and more in favour of EV usage, this £24/25 billion decreases until it's only around 50% of what is was.
So they would need to move the burden or increase the per mile charge at some point. I would guess it's the latter as the average EV driver "only" paid 50% of what an ICE driver does/did so there's plenty of scope to increase it.

Your average EV driver will still be better off compared to an average ICE driver on 3ppm and that's how it will be "sold" to the public.

They will tell everyone it's fairer, but still around 50% less than what an average ICE driver would pay AND there is more good news for EV drivers.
If you charge at home you only pay 5% VAT, but all ICE drivers pay 20% VAT on their fuel.

So going back to "I want that".
It's still a convincing argument for the government that EV usage will be taxed less compared to ICE usage (for now).

What they won't care about is it's no longer comparable with current EV usage compared to EV usage later as in the overall scheme of things, those are a small proportion at the moment and they know the longer they leave it, the harder it will be as it would negatively effect more and more  EV users the later they leave it.

I hear there could be an argument made as it won't exactly encouraging EV ownership.
Well they are banning the sales of the alternative, how much more encouragement does everyone need? 
You either buy an EV and pay per mile or continue to run around in your ICE and more in pay fuel duty.  

Car_54

Grey_Critic said:

 There was a time the only way they could tell if a car was taxed and that meant someome physically checking it today we have ANPR - it cost a lot of OUR MONEY to do it but it is here. Never say it will never happen.

It depends what you mean by "they". ANPR helps the police, but it's not essential.

DVLA don't need it: they routinely pursue RKs for lack of tax/insurance/MOT just by diarising the expiry dates.

Grey_Critic

***

Car_54 said:

Grey_Critic said:

 There was a time the only way they could tell if a car was taxed and that meant someome physically checking it today we have ANPR - it cost a lot of OUR MONEY to do it but it is here. Never say it will never happen.

It depends what you mean by "they". ANPR helps the police, but it's not essential.

DVLA don't need it: they routinely pursue RKs for lack of tax/insurance/MOT just by diarising the expiry dates.

Except there are a lot without. With the PPM technology no doubt they will also fit a kill switch and do it that way 

born_again

Grumpy_chap said:

Herzlos said:

Traditionally big tax changes have never been retrospective either; we've already got completely different VED mechanisms for cars before 2001, 2001-2017 and 2017 onward. 

Except that has been ignored for EVs, which originally had zero VED and now have the standard rate applied retrospectively.

Electric, zero or low emission cars registered between 1 March 2001 and 31 March 2017

The tax rate for these vehicles is £20.

So not the std £195 🤷‍♀️