Metering Requirements of Octopus Snug

Scot_39

In one recent users journey to Snug - Octopus actually tested the mode - before finally switching - in her case from E7 to Snug.

It may perversely be worth looking at data around the actual start of Snug in Dec - rather than the end.

I cannot remember the exact timings in the Rosie1001 thread - but it surprised here when it happened - think it was just days before - possibly over the weekend in fact (like the Fri - to Sat or Sat to Sun overnight etc).  I'd have to rescan the now very long threads.  And am off out for the day.

IIRC not only did her rates /kWh change - but even the terminology - the naming of at least one the rates - in their app / portal - was it in one of the vienna28 responses who pointed that one out.

QrizB

I'll let others comment in more detail but, looking at those consumption charts, only the 13th of March has anything that could be an afternoon boost and even that isn't entirely convincing.

Phones4Chris

@Scot_39 Oh dear again!. So many things there, a few taken out of context, a few which are assumptions and some which are clearly speculation. I'll respond later when I've had time to sort through it all, and I'll probably reply is several posts where there are issues which are not related that you have just lumped in one statement.

Phones4Chris

QrizB said:

I'll let others comment in more detail but, looking at those consumption charts, only the 13th of March has anything that could be an afternoon boost and even that isn't entirely convincing.

Hi. No I'm not sure that it is. I agree it's possible to initially think that because of the energy levels involved, but it doesn't appear to be in the correct time slots. If you try counting them through, they appear to be 1700-1730, 1730-1800 and a bit in 1800-1830. Whereas for those that have had an afternoon boost, it's been the 1500-1600 GMT slots. I reckon it's just @jodie264 usage, maybe cooking? but I doubt she'd remember back then, unless that date was something special, but there's something not right about that entry as the table below for the part that can be seen is not consistent with the graph.

Phones4Chris

Scot_39 said:

Phones4Chris said:

Scot_39 said:

Marginal - not as clear as Mar - but its still much higher than the next few slots - and probably only because the last heater had cut out - just as other(s) had earlier in the period - that it wasn't as clear as the Mar example.

You can try and find reasons for that one slot - to try and prove that Octopus have misled the customer - to me - on the evidence presented - it all screams not on Snug.

If the customer can find days when it was working - great - but for me there is not one single thing in those 4 days of half hourly usage charts that I can see to suggest it was.

And its not worth me personally spending any more time on. 

Oh dear.
Marginal, EXCEPT for March 12th. I'm not "looking" for reasons, I'm trying to discover what's actually happened rather than continue to speculate and make claims about Octopus misleading customers!!
March the 12th is the ONLY example in those 4 that suggests heating usage, the others are absolutely no where near high enough.
I do happen to think that the evidence suggests the meter was still on E7 timings, but I'd rather have better evidence, rather than speculate.
The only thing it screams is (yet again) the meter wasn't correctly programmed!
This is not the only example where a tariff was programmed (not necessarily correctly) but the ALCS was NOT programmed correctly at the same time.

You really need to stop thinking of Snug in the same context as a conventional tou tariff alcs.
Or smart tou billing in the same context as register based billing.
Or for that matter in one of your other posts - boost.

If the meter was still as you appear to agree - on e7 timings it was because snug dynamic control wasnt working. 

It had either stayed - or if say you can find a day when snug control had ever worked - subsequently reverted to preset

Right, let's start with the above -
I really don't know what you think you mean, or what you think I think about thinking of Snug in the same context as conventional ToU tariffs alcs. I've never made any such or similar statements or remarks.
BUT for the record it is a "smart" tariff as Octopus categorise it, and it's certainly ToU as it has an "off-peak" timeslot 0030-0630 charged at the low 9p rate, and an afternoon boost slot also charged at the 9p rate (but that slot is not called off-peak by Octopus.)
You have, in a number of threads and  on a number of occasions, confusingly talked about "core" hours in a manner that appears to refer to times when the ALCS is activated. It's a term not used by Octopus in any of there Blogs or Ts&Cs. You have also referred to it as a "dynamic" tariff, again whatever you think that means in your head, it's not a term used by Octopus anywhere in their blogs or Ts&Cs.

I have never thought that Snug is register based billing, it's quite obvious that it's 1/2hrly billing, and I believe I've even referred to that somewhere down the line.

And as for your remark about boost, I was not talking about Snug's afternoon boost, you clearly did not bother to read the context of what I said. I was referring to the reddit thread, that you quoted which you obviously didn't bother to go back and read, where one of the posters there was telling people to use the "boost function" on their smart meters, as he did, to charge his heaters during the time when Octopus were giving free energy.
Unreliable information because not all smart meters have this "boost function" to manually activate the ALCS.

I'd made no statement that I agreed that @jodie264 's meter ALCS was on E7 timings. I did recently say that I was suspicious it was, but that was after we started to see the graphs and bills (AFAIK no other user has posted such information previously) and I had not jumped to any previous conclusion that just because the ALCS was switching, that Snug was "working" as intended. It's only with some of the latest graphs, can it be definitely concluded that it seems to be on an E7 timing 0000-0700 GMT.
Just because there was initial evidence that there was energy usage consistent with heating in the 0000-0030 time slot was not sufficient proof. You also seemed to think that on the initial 4 graphs posted usage that was eg. 0.15 or 0.10 kWh prior to and in the 0630-0700 slot was "proof" (such low usage is inconsistent with a storage heater or immersion heater rating) rather than the only one on the 12th where it was still ~2kWh consistent with the previous slots since 0400.
We did/do not know whether there was/is any experimenting with the Snug "off-peak" timeslot in different parts of the country or for different users - I think not, but you yourself was talking about the timeslot being brought forward in one post - very confusing to anyone reading as it was just speculation on your part.
As already said above, some of the most recent graphs have shown similar to the 12th March.

You talk about finding a day when Snug control has worked, and also about "reverting to preset". I don't know what you think Snug "control" actually does or is. The way you've talked about it in may posts, it's as though you expect Octopus's servers to be constantly chattering away to all the users' meters on Snug. Not only do I think that's not happening, IMHO that will never happen. The only time that Octopus will be talking to the meter is when it's set up on Snug, with the schedule that the user has requested. And again at any future time when a user has altered the requested schedule. OR perhaps at some future time when Octopus may choose to alter the "off-peak" times or times for the afternoon boost or add or remove it. So far, none of the latter has occurred. The Ts&Cs quote the off-peak slot as 0030 to 0630, and for those where they got the afternoon boost working, it's been consistently 1500-1600 GMT.
And as far as reverting to "preset", again a term not used by Octopus anywhere. The only normal "preset" ALCS calendar is zero/blank on a new meter - the ALCS not operated. It's only in cases where there's no or unreliable comms signals have some providers supplied and fitted the meters with an E7 tariff pre-programmed into the meter.
It is NOT possible for the ALCS Calendar schedule to change in anyway without an input from the provider. The ALCS will operate according to the last calendar input that it received or was given, so para.2.14.9 is confusing in the way Octopus have attempted to explain something in plain english rather than tech-speak.

At one point, you also started speculating about @jodie264 's comms signal being weak and that's why her meter was deemed incompatible with Snug, when she'd already said she'd had bills with all the complete 1/2hr billing.
A number of your posts end up being difficult to follow because of all the speculation you put in rather than sticking to facts, and so where you make a valid point it can get missed.

I'll comment on other parts of your post later.

jodie264

Just a few things to clarify before I go out today. 
I have never had an afternoon boost.  The graphs confirm what I knew.  I checked my water heater light at random times between 2 and 5 over a couple of weeks and it never came on.
My night hours were always seven with E7.  On the change to SNUG, I set them at 6 which they show on the graph.
The graphs show high usage when the evening has been cold and the temperature drops so the heaters need to do more work.
When I have been up late perhaps, using a manual heater before going to bed, the graph shows lower on the night rate - as the NHS don't need to do as much work until the temperature drops. 
When the nights have been particularly cold, and I have avoided supplementing the NHS during the evening, the thermostat has picked this up and worked harder to reach the set temperature again, showing a spike as the night rate and NHS kick in.
The temperature I set is between 18c and 21c
Sometimes the usage is less because I sometimes use a manually controlled heater on my landing during the evening, so my hallway/open diner NHS doesnt need to do so much work.
During the day, high usage shows when I have had to switch the manually operated heater on in my 'work room' upstairs. 
Those other heaters have VERY efficient thermostats. 
 

 

Scot_39

I suggest you need to examine timing charts in other threads here.  And you will see snug is dynamic.

Alcs and 9p rate can be scheduled differently on different nights without any user changes.

As early as 11pm in some examples and solid to early am.

Sometimes on for 1/2 an hour off then back on again.

Same user, same meters, different nights.
2330 on judging by use / charge
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6575726/snug-octopus-economy-7-problems
2300 on 2330 off by rate
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/81362059/#Comment_81362059

I have not included tge the single post ex that vienna28 posted 16th / 17th Apr  as that was following a 6 hr to 4 hr portal max charge request.  But the before change ex started 23:00.  And after a second max change, went back to 2300 on 22nd. Or a manual change to 1 hr when on e7 timings - Snug not working late Apr early May - that achieved no change.


Do you really think say Octopus made the conscious decision to reprogram vienna28's meter to E7 timing when they had lost control of it for Snug for several days ?

So they can set an e7 profile but cannot set a Snug  profile to replace it - given your speculation about how it operates ?

Its much more likely as described in 2.14.9 - a meter reversion to preset - so on loss of Snug dynamic control.  And when Octopus test meters for Snug they can reportedly detect and sreport a success or failure of the Snug alcs request.

Once you grasp Snug is dynamic you will the understand my use of core hours, the 0030 to 0630  - everyone on Snug would understand what is meant by that - 9p rate regardless of alcs selection. 

But that night slot can be extended - so I use core hours to differentiate from dynamic off peak night time period.
And many users report that alcs does not always remain active during that full period - so its neither the alcs active time or the full off peak rate selected time.

Its just the guaranteed hours at 9p off peak --summer and winter. So the core time you can say schedule any device at 9p off peak rates with certainty -  e.g. EV charger or washer dryer etc.  (Subject to 7hr fair use potentially.)

jodie264

Just an update - I have until midnight to respond to the evidence provided by Octopus about my complaint and to respond with my thoughts on how they have dealt with it.  I am not going to tempt fate but will keep you posted.  Meanwhile I am back on Snug, get afternoon boost between 4 and 5 daily but have a problem with my hot water - on off peak but on a separate circuit on the circuit board. It is due to be fixed and then I will take it from there.  My profile class now reads 0151 but that doesn't sound right but will be added to my "I still haven't had answers to my questions" which I'm sending to my file later today.  Oh and solar panels are being fitted on Wednesday it seems ! 

Ildhund

jodie264 said:

My profile class now reads 0151 but that doesn't sound right  ...

No, it doesn't. Where are you seeing this? The Profile Class for a domestic customer should be 00, 01 or 02; I would expect yours to be 02 indicating a multi-rate supply. 0151 sounds like a Standard Settlement Configuration, nowadays shown in the middle box on the top line of the 'S' panel giving the MPAN.



0151 is a basic Economy 7 arrangement, with offpeak hours 00:30 - 07:30 GMT. 

jodie264

I noted the wrong term - it is on the profile but this is lifted from a site and on Wikepedia.  I was 811 for years.  At the point of the disputed bill I was changed to 900. After alerting Octopus to it (after being told what was showing incorrectly for someone with dual supply/E7, by someone in another energy company) I am now showing as 0151.  When I looked at that code somewhere I cant recall, it seemed to be showing about four or five different peak and off peak.  It is all in the hands of the ombudsman now so watch this space.

 

Meter Time Switch Code (MTC)

The MTC is a 3 digit code that reflects the various registers a meter may have, such as a single rate, day/night split, or a seasonal time of day.[5][6]

MTC Ranges

001–399	DNO specific
400–499	Reserved
500–509	Codes for related Metering Systems – common across the Industry
510–799	Codes for related Metering Systems – DNO specific
800–999	Codes common across the Industry