Metering Requirements of Octopus Snug

mmmmikey

tamste said:

MattMattMattUK said:

If people want a smart tariff they need the relevant smart equipment or compatible setup, if they want a basic peak/off-peak setup then that is E7.

Interesting .. "smart equipment" ???

How is a 30 year old storage heater with very limited controls  "smarter" than a modern, efficient version with all the additional insulation and controls?

It isn't but a smart meter with ALCS control is reasonably described as "smart equipment".  You also seem to have missed the point somewhat. In order to qualify for a particular tariff you need to meet the requirements of that tariff.

MattMattMattUK

tamste said:

MattMattMattUK said:

tamste said:

Also .. why do BEV's get priority over heating, which is a basic necessity!

What makes you think that EVs get "priority"? Electricity supplies are not limited in any meaningful way, your heating is not turned off so that cars can be charged.

Tariffs for BEV's are much cheaper than E7 across many providers whether they are "Smart" or not, and taking power from the grid at the same time .. i.e. overnight. Some tariffs give the charge control to the provider, but others don't, making most of them E6 tariffs (most are 6 hours overnight).

Heating is a basic necessity .. owning a BEV is not.

You can sign up to most non-smart EV tariffs without owning an EV, they are ToU tariffs. Only the smart tariffs require one to verify the vehicle or charger.

I know you think you are being clever repeatedly mentioning heating being a necessity vs EVs not, but it is firstly entirely irrelevant as a comparison and secondly in most of the country not essential.

tamste said:

MattMattMattUK said:

If people want a smart tariff they need the relevant smart equipment or compatible setup, if they want a basic peak/off-peak setup then that is E7.

Interesting .. "smart equipment" ???

How is a 30 year old storage heater with very limited controls  "smarter" than a modern, efficient version with all the additional insulation and controls?

The smart meter with automatic switching is the smart part of that system. Neither is smarter than the other, the difference is that one can be controlled by the supplier, the other cannot and the requirement is for the supplier to be able to control charging, be that battery or thermal storage.

You can either choose to understand, or you can continue to choose not to understand, that choice is up to you.

QrizB

MattMattMattUK said:

I know you think you are being clearer repeatedly mentioning heating being a necessity vs EVs not, but it is firstly entirely irrelevant as a comparison and secondly in most of the country not essential.

Also, a typical BEV might only need charging by ~10kWh a night (assuming 10k miles per year at 3 miles per kWh). A property with storage heaters will usually need several times that amount (one medium-sized storage heater might take more than that).

Scot_39

tamste said:

MattMattMattUK said:

If people want a smart tariff they need the relevant smart equipment or compatible setup, if they want a basic peak/off-peak setup then that is E7.

Interesting .. "smart equipment" ???

How is a 30 year old storage heater with very limited controls  "smarter" than a modern, efficient version with all the additional insulation and controls?

Because the meter switching of it allows smart meter based supplier control switching.  For demand response schemes and currently for low and at least currently core block pricing a la Snug.

Which arguably is going to be far more acute an issue under HSS to maintain revenue balancing at suppliers.  From what they will soon be paying explicitly to generators per slot, at least for those with communicating smart meters, to balance what they receive from their customers across the board, and with those on TOU tariffs perhaps explicitly per slot via dynamic / surge pricing to match.

As energy-uk.org makes clear, HSS is at its very heart going to have to be a control mechanism on us as consumers, if we are to benefit,  it needs to shape our use - the when and how.   See my post here 

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/81625593/#Comment_81625593


It doesn't of course make tge hester itself anymore efficient, any less lossy, it doesn't make it time programmable for heat output, and certainly doesn't allow smart app control remotely or locally. 

AAnd let's face it, the savings these things can bring- are not exactly revenue raising for our suppliers.

Scot_39

QrizB said:

MattMattMattUK said:

I know you think you are being clearer repeatedly mentioning heating being a necessity vs EVs not, but it is firstly entirely irrelevant as a comparison and secondly in most of the country not essential.

Also, a typical BEV might only need charging by ~10kWh a night (assuming 10k miles per year at 3 miles per kWh). A property with storage heaters will usually need several times that amount (one medium-sized storage heater might take more than that).

Their isn't realky headroom in the PC2 tdcvs for typical hones with all electric say with nsh to actualky pull several times 10kWh per day even in say 4-6 months of late autumn, winter early spring.

I use c500-600kWh pm 17-20kWh on average per day for winter month to stay c10% below 3900kWh the median pc2 tdcv / basis of pc2 cap - in milder winters.

Thd 3900 kWh only an average of 10.7kWh per day.

The lower cap quartile c2200kWh.  That's only 6kWh average per day for everything.

That's nominally everything - all year standard use, you might expect the df electric to cover, for a different set of homes,  hw year round and space heating in winter only months. 

But the ev vs nsh case I suspect as well as just clever marketing - is justified on just that last point - year round vs winter - use of moderate levels of energy year round - during at least currently low demand times.

But in reality I suspect ave non business ev use far closer to average electric hw use - maybe c5kWh inc 2 showers - maybe  for uk average now lower 7000-7500 miles 

But those low demand times are shifting increasingly as mord move to EVs so their days of low rates might be numbered.

And with demand shifts come tge industries stated goals to control how and when we use power if we are to get benefit from HHS.  Sounds lije dynamic / surge pricing to me.
And the simple fact Ofgem saw fit to weaken dapf protection, suggests they are happy to allow that path.

Spoonie_Turtle

[Also re: BEV vs heating, the vast majority of the country have their heating on and powered during the day, not at night.  That's not to say people with NSHs should in any way be disadvantaged, just that if you're saying 'heating is an essential', well, the majority of the country use gas still.  Then with electric boilers and heat pumps, other people with electric heating use the majority of their power for heating in the day.  Only NSH and night owls use the bulk/all of their heating power draw overnight. 

And there already is a standard tariff designed for that anyway which all suppliers offer, Economy 7.]

Phones4Chris

Spoonie_Turtle said:

[Also re: BEV vs heating, the vast majority of the country have their heating on and powered during the day, not at night.  That's not to say people with NSHs should in any way be disadvantaged, just that if you're saying 'heating is an essential', well, the majority of the country use gas still.  Then with electric boilers and heat pumps, other people with electric heating use the majority of their power for heating in the day.  Only NSH and night owls use the bulk/all of their heating power draw overnight. 

And there already is a standard tariff designed for that anyway which all suppliers offer, Economy 7.]

I think that you are forgetting that there are a significant number of people who do not have a gas supply as well as those that live in colder parts of the country and have had tariffs like Economy 10 which OFGEM have "conveniently" failed to address particularly in the RTS switch-off scenario.
Also, with NSHs, the power might be applied at night, but most NSHs (except the very oldest box of bricks) don't emit sufficient heat at night to be useful to any night-owls.
Octopus's Snug tariff is an innovative concept to try and provide a more "up-to-date" tariff to address the issue of people needing a boost for their older systems to give a more even heat distribution later in (as well as throughout) the day.
Nor do I believe that you have any "evidence" that the "majority" with "electric" heating use their power in the day!
I also tend to agree with @tamste 's sentiment that EVs appear to get better tariffs that those with NSHs!
From a lot of the comments I'm seeing around this forum, I get the impression that there seems to be a bit of misunderstanding both by Consumers and Octopus (most likely first line support) about the "applicability" of the Snug tariff.

jodie264

Phones4Chris said:

jodie264 said:

I have the meter and heaters they said were compatible with snug.  I have always had e7 because there is no gas supply to the homes here.  They are up to date heaters.  I was billed their tariff for months and then they said the tariff was not compatible and more than doubled the charges. So for the first time in over 30 years I have gone from credit of around 250 to a debt of 607!  You could not make it up so instead of paying less by switching, I am being billed for more than if I had not switched in the first place.

Sorry, you've not been very clear here about exactly what's happened.
You were obviously on E7 previously, was this recently with Octopus as you talked about "if I had not switched in the first place" -  you might have meant switched suppliers with that remark.

So, presumably your started with Octopus on E7, did you then actually switch to Snug and how quickly?
Which tariff were you billed for months - E7 or Snug?
Whichever, what reason did they give for saying "it was not compatible" and when you say more than doubled the charges, was that because E7 was more expensive than Snug OR did they not put you back on E7?
IF they haven't put you back on E7 (whatever reasons they'd previously given), then you need to raise a (formal if need be) complaint. And also ensure they rebill you correctly on an E7 tariff (they have all the meter readings/data) back to when they changed things.

Are all your storage heaters on a separate off-peak circuit which is controlled and switched by the meter? So none are on the 24/7 circuit and just controlled by their own timers?

Edit: I've just seen that you have posted clearer details in another thread, but for the sake of clarity in this thread it would be helpful if you also clarified here.

I switched tariffs from e7 to snug after they had checked my meter and heater types.  Heaters are on separate circuits and have never been able to be controlled by me.  Billed monthly between Dec 11th 2024 and April 19th 2025.  Snug bill showed half hourly kwh and costs for both day and night rate.  Each bill showed not only the half hourly but the daily so 30 plus pages.  Calculations were correct and reflected usage and in home display too.  £707 across that period.  The new tariff showed as fixed 12 month octopus and as a day rate and night rate and totals £1596.  This was more than what they quoted me for the whole of 25/26!  I was in credit of £544 when I moved to the tariff too!  I have pursued this for weeks and am now well over the eight weeks to take to the OMBUDSMAN. They even show the snug tariff as available to me still!  It is beyond belief how common sense would allow anyone to think that faced with the facts that they cant just put their hands up and answer my questions - the answers to which are almost laid out for them!  

Spoonie_Turtle

Phones4Chris said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

[Also re: BEV vs heating, the vast majority of the country have their heating on and powered during the day, not at night.  That's not to say people with NSHs should in any way be disadvantaged, just that if you're saying 'heating is an essential', well, the majority of the country use gas still.  Then with electric boilers and heat pumps, other people with electric heating use the majority of their power for heating in the day.  Only NSH and night owls use the bulk/all of their heating power draw overnight. 

And there already is a standard tariff designed for that anyway which all suppliers offer, Economy 7.]

I think that you are forgetting that there are a significant number of people who do not have a gas supply as well as those that live in colder parts of the country and have had tariffs like Economy 10 which OFGEM have "conveniently" failed to address particularly in the RTS switch-off scenario.
Also, with NSHs, the power might be applied at night, but most NSHs (except the very oldest box of bricks) don't emit sufficient heat at night to be useful to any night-owls.
Octopus's Snug tariff is an innovative concept to try and provide a more "up-to-date" tariff to address the issue of people needing a boost for their older systems to give a more even heat distribution later in (as well as throughout) the day.
Nor do I believe that you have any "evidence" that the "majority" with "electric" heating use their power in the day!
I also tend to agree with @tamste 's sentiment that EVs appear to get better tariffs that those with NSHs!
From a lot of the comments I'm seeing around this forum, I get the impression that there seems to be a bit of misunderstanding both by Consumers and Octopus (most likely first line support) about the "applicability" of the Snug tariff.

I am very well aware - in fact we are one of those households.  I haven't checked for a while but I believe it was something like 80-85% of the country are on the gas grid, a vast majority, which means those of us who aren't are 15-20%.

I also did not say a majority of people using electric heating used theirs in the day.  I said the majority of the country - meaning everyone, including those with gas - use their heating in the day. 

I also said NSHs AND night owls power their heating at night, not that night owls necessarily use NSHs.  Of course storage heaters wouldn't be useful for overnight heating, unless charged in the day and there's no tariff designed for that small niche. 
[But if the majority of a night owl's electricity use were overnight - whether that included electric non-NSH heating or not - then they may benefit from E7.]

Perhaps in future it would be advisable to reread the post instead of strongly responding to something that was not actually said.

Phones4Chris

Spoonie_Turtle said:

Phones4Chris said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

[Also re: BEV vs heating, the vast majority of the country have their heating on and powered during the day, not at night.  That's not to say people with NSHs should in any way be disadvantaged, just that if you're saying 'heating is an essential', well, the majority of the country use gas still.  Then with electric boilers and heat pumps, other people with electric heating use the majority of their power for heating in the day.  Only NSH and night owls use the bulk/all of their heating power draw overnight. 

And there already is a standard tariff designed for that anyway which all suppliers offer, Economy 7.]

I think that you are forgetting that there are a significant number of people who do not have a gas supply as well as those that live in colder parts of the country and have had tariffs like Economy 10 which OFGEM have "conveniently" failed to address particularly in the RTS switch-off scenario.
Also, with NSHs, the power might be applied at night, but most NSHs (except the very oldest box of bricks) don't emit sufficient heat at night to be useful to any night-owls.
Octopus's Snug tariff is an innovative concept to try and provide a more "up-to-date" tariff to address the issue of people needing a boost for their older systems to give a more even heat distribution later in (as well as throughout) the day.
Nor do I believe that you have any "evidence" that the "majority" with "electric" heating use their power in the day!
I also tend to agree with @tamste 's sentiment that EVs appear to get better tariffs that those with NSHs!
From a lot of the comments I'm seeing around this forum, I get the impression that there seems to be a bit of misunderstanding both by Consumers and Octopus (most likely first line support) about the "applicability" of the Snug tariff.

I am very well aware - in fact we are one of those households.  I haven't checked for a while but I believe it was something like 80-85% of the country are on the gas grid, a vast majority, which means those of us who aren't are 15-20%.

I also did not say a majority of people using electric heating used theirs in the day.  I said the majority of the country - meaning everyone, including those with gas - use their heating in the day. 

I also said NSHs AND night owls power their heating at night, not that night owls necessarily use NSHs.  Of course storage heaters wouldn't be useful for overnight heating, unless charged in the day and there's no tariff designed for that small niche. 
[But if the majority of a night owl's electricity use were overnight - whether that included electric non-NSH heating or not - then they may benefit from E7.]

Perhaps in future it would be advisable to reread the post instead of strongly responding to something that was not actually said.

Spoonie_Turtle said:

[Also re: BEV vs heating, the vast majority of the country have their heating on and powered during the day, not at night.  That's not to say people with NSHs should in any way be disadvantaged, just that if you're saying 'heating is an essential', well, the majority of the country use gas still.  Then with electric boilers and heat pumps, other people with electric heating use the majority of their power for heating in the day.  Only NSH and night owls use the bulk/all of their heating power draw overnight. 

And there already is a standard tariff designed for that anyway which all suppliers offer, Economy 7.]

 Well excuse me, I don't agree with your "translation" of my post. You said two things to be pedantic -
"other people with electric heating use the majority of their power for heating in the day."
that was in addition to -
"the vast majority of the country have their heating on and powered during the day,"
Anyway, you've expressed an opinion, to which you are quite welcome to do, I just disagree with you - that's my opinion.
I also think the "vast majority of the country" are out at work or wherever during the day and don't have the heating on. Obviously those at home, retired etc may well do.