Metering Requirements of Octopus Snug

Phones4Chris

Scot_39 said:

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But you can see the impact of high use in the 06:30 to 07:00 slot and a little ALCS delay on the 07:00 to 07:30 slots on both the 9th Jan and 12th Mar examples. 
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No that's not correct! The only day showing HIGH usage in the 0630-0700 slot is the 12th March. The others show marginally higher usage, which is why I asked my question about usage in that time rather than try speculating. I should have included whether there was any dusk to dawn lighting used.

Scot_39

Marginal - not as clear as Mar - but its still much higher than the next few slots - and probably only because the last heater had cut out - just as other(s) had earlier in the period - that it wasn't as clear as the Mar example.

You can try and find reasons for that one slot - to try and prove that Octopus have misled the customer - to me - on the evidence presented - it all screams not on Snug.

If the customer can find days when it was working - great - but for me there is not one single thing in those 4 days of half hourly usage charts that I can see to suggest it was.

And its not worth me personally spending any more time on. 

Phones4Chris

Scot_39 said:
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That to me suggests to me you were in fact stuck on E7 ALCS timings

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That's what we need to try and establish rather than speculation or guesswork.

Scot_39 said:
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 and that snug's control of your meter was NOT operating correctly on any one of those days.

If Octopus had brought the cheap rate forward - I believe it shows on charts - I'd have to hunt here or on reddit threads for the advanced examples to check.

Those 4 days looks to me exactly like the first two lines in my other thread post trying to explain the implications of their failure to control.  The 2.14.9 clause in the T&Cs

Don't bother looking on reddit, as I've already comment on another reddit example you recently gave, the information there is NOT reliable, and more to the point has no direct connection with this issue.
You seem to be so hung up on your 2.14.9 Ts&Cs that you are again speculating.
The fact of the matter is that there appears to be consistency right throughout the whole period on Snug.

Scot_39 said:
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If those profiles are consistent from Dec 2024 E7 to Snug Octopus switch - to April - I am not sure they were actually ever able to control your meter for the Snug tariff.

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It's not a question of "control", it's simply that the programming of the meter was not correct to start with!
Unless a user is periodically changing their Snug settings in the App, then there's no reason for any changes to be sent to the meter by Octopus UNLESS they decided to change the Off-peak hours periodically because of cheap energy. There is NOT a single example of that from any user on this forum that had Snug. The off-peak hours have been consistently stable.

Scot_39 said:
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Edit 2

Users of course really shouldn't have to - suppliers should.  But having seen some of the things thers have beentold by CS - do worry if they really have the people to do so - or those that do - are accessible / getting the feedback

As to why they show 9p even if failed to control the night slot - but show day rate 3-4 pm - when they havent - my only guess would be they auto detect the night failure - and therefore dont try for the day afternoon boost - and so dont register the 9p. 

Edit

Remeber the 9p applies any time - not just core hours - if they have activated the ALCS.

And always applies at core hours anyway - even if you cut the heating time down below the 6 hours max core slot time - in the portal - which seems to be backed up by the tests @vienna28 did at least when he went from 4.5 to 3 hours. 

So the pricing 0030 to 0630 isnt an indication of successful control - just core hours.

Outside core hours - no schedule no 9p - schedule outside core 0030 to 0630 - at literally anytime of day or night - you get the 9p.

I had been commenting about speculation but the bit about "don't try for the afternoon boost" really is beyond (almost bordering on conspiracy theory).
The bit I've highlighted in bold, you've either got your explanation wrong, or misunderstood.
The 9p does NOT apply anytime the ALCS is activated. The tariff timing is totally SEPARATE from the ALCS calendar programming.

If the meter is reachable, (that includes the return of the 1/2hrly data) then there's absolutely no reason why the ALCS programming should not be correctly done at the same time as the tariff programming. The meter was clearly programmed with rates consistent with the Snug tariff, but timings appear to be incorrect, so the Meter was reachable and incorrectly programmed.

@jodie264 Just as a double check, have a look back through your Snug billing and check to see if there were any gaps whatsoever in the half-hourly data throughout the whole period.

Phones4Chris

Scot_39 said:

Marginal - not as clear as Mar - but its still much higher than the next few slots - and probably only because the last heater had cut out - just as other(s) had earlier in the period - that it wasn't as clear as the Mar example.

You can try and find reasons for that one slot - to try and prove that Octopus have misled the customer - to me - on the evidence presented - it all screams not on Snug.

If the customer can find days when it was working - great - but for me there is not one single thing in those 4 days of half hourly usage charts that I can see to suggest it was.

And its not worth me personally spending any more time on. 

Oh dear.
Marginal, EXCEPT for March 12th. I'm not "looking" for reasons, I'm trying to discover what's actually happened rather than continue to speculate and make claims about Octopus misleading customers!!
March the 12th is the ONLY example in those 4 that suggests heating usage, the others are absolutely no where near high enough.
I do happen to think that the evidence suggests the meter was still on E7 timings, but I'd rather have better evidence, rather than speculate.
The only thing it screams is (yet again) the meter wasn't correctly programmed!
This is not the only example where a tariff was programmed (not necessarily correctly) but the ALCS was NOT programmed correctly at the same time.

jodie264

I cant really say what hours cos I cant see but see my answer beow about hot water light.  Going through ALL my snug bills, it still shows 00.30 to 06.30 EVERY day.  I have only been able to actually SEE when night rate (E7 OR Snug) kicks in on two occasions because I have been up late and have happened to open the airing cupboard door and see the light not on and then on, within the space of 10 mins.  There was a difference of about 2 or 3 mins each time but that was all.  I have checked ALL my Snug bills and the graph coincides with the temperature changes - I have excellent thermostats on my NHS but overall, my house is hard to heat as I only have two NHS downstairs to heat a 3 bedroom house.  This means I supplement it with modern, eco thermostatically controlled heaters upstairs and use a calor gas fire downstairs.  I noticed that when the house had been kept warm during the day and evening, the graph/kwh overnight showed less usage than the day preceding.  The graph generally conicided with what my meter showed as being used...eg when I had a bath instead of a shower, the usage was higher that night...i tracked this on paper 

jodie264

Oh and there were NO gaps at all Phones4Chris.  Now I think about it, with E7, historically I always had 7 hours off peak.  12.30 to .7.30 or 1.30 to 8.30 or near enough.  There was always a few minutes give or take but that makes sense nationally I suppose.  There were well over a hundred of families living here all with the same heaters and so unlikely they would have gone on at EXACTLY the same time

Phones4Chris

@jodie264 Thanks for those replies.
Can you look through your billing (I guess it is) for a consumption kWh graph and table similar to the January 8th that you've posted but for a high usage one (ie. the weather has been cold) if possible not close to any of the dates you've posted, one where the Off-peak consumption is somewhere upwards of ~37kWh (so the day's total will be upwards of ~48kWh).

Scot_39

Phones4Chris said:

Scot_39 said:

Marginal - not as clear as Mar - but its still much higher than the next few slots - and probably only because the last heater had cut out - just as other(s) had earlier in the period - that it wasn't as clear as the Mar example.

You can try and find reasons for that one slot - to try and prove that Octopus have misled the customer - to me - on the evidence presented - it all screams not on Snug.

If the customer can find days when it was working - great - but for me there is not one single thing in those 4 days of half hourly usage charts that I can see to suggest it was.

And its not worth me personally spending any more time on. 

Oh dear.
Marginal, EXCEPT for March 12th. I'm not "looking" for reasons, I'm trying to discover what's actually happened rather than continue to speculate and make claims about Octopus misleading customers!!
March the 12th is the ONLY example in those 4 that suggests heating usage, the others are absolutely no where near high enough.
I do happen to think that the evidence suggests the meter was still on E7 timings, but I'd rather have better evidence, rather than speculate.
The only thing it screams is (yet again) the meter wasn't correctly programmed!
This is not the only example where a tariff was programmed (not necessarily correctly) but the ALCS was NOT programmed correctly at the same time.

You really need to stop thinking of Snug in the same context as a conventional tou tariff alcs.
Or smart tou billing in the same context as register based billing.
Or for that matter in one of your other posts - boost.

If the meter was still as you appear to agree - on e7 timings it was because snug dynamic control wasnt working. 

It had either stayed - or if say you can find a day when snug control had ever worked - subsequently reverted to preset

And the billing operates as 2.14.9 - which you can see in at least one of tge price examples with a high 0000 to 0030 £/p figure for heating use.

If Octopus misled the op in some ways it seems to me that was in allowing snug to continue when in conversation(s) the customer requested to stay on it.

Heating on is not proof of snug timing working.

Heating on e7 timing is proof of failure.
That being charged at snug rates, is only a temporary failure mode in the T&Cs.  2.14.9
30 days failure - consecutive / cummulative - and if so over how long - ends snug. 2.14.7

Snug ended - the customer rebilled for 4 months use.

All exactly as might be expected. 


And that maybe influenced by the customers own IMO misguided belief because was getting heat - it was working - and a weak customer service rep agreeing to - or perhaps agreeing to have another attempt at activating (as they have after temporary failures for others - see vienna28 posts here for instance - as linked to before )

I asked several things - like to get a report from Octopus of success and failure to control and got the same stone wall response - one that your posts seek to risk reinforing - that it was working.

Neither you or the customer has produced any evidence that it ever was.  And plenty to suggest it wasnt.  Exactly as Octopus in end I no uncertain terms informed customer - and rebilled accordingly.

The only failure if was one on Octopus part IMO - is how long it took. 
And for me - also perhaps a clear failure to explain the operation in any periods of failure to the customer. 

But I was not party to the conversation(s?) ending with customers I want to stay on snug.

Who I suspect hadn't read the full smart and snug specific Octopus  t&cs.  (And to be fare you have to understand the implications, how meters, smart tou and their billing works, to do so). 

I dont fully - but unlike most I have read the specs, reading through  the dcc / sec mmessagelistsc- even structures /  specifications and the smets meter specification much more than your average home customer should ever have to. 
But it does make you aware of flexibility and failure modes.
Like when in Rosiie1001 thread meter tariff timings and alcs tables - not for the first time - were mismatched - but thats not the case here.
Snug is not as above a conventional tariff.

Someone - referred to it being experimental - it certainly has some failures.  But then thats true of smart meters in general - e.g. some without operating wan dcc comms not opening up the world of smart savings to their customers.

jodie264

All I know is that had I NOT moved to what they said was a compatible and cheaper tariff,
I would have remained in credit - as I always have been
My payments would be £170 a month - as they still are
My usage would have been the same.
I would not have been rebilled and put in debt
That is my point -
an afternoon boost - great, a cheaper tariff - great and if it doesnt work
Put me where I was before you said this was the correct tariff for me for five months!
I will post the graphs for Phones4Chris in another post

jodie264

Ive attached the days with the off peak and total as near to your request as I can find.  They are all for the billing cycle, 19th Feb to 18th March.  Total consumption for that period was 739 kwh night and 262 kwh day.  The credit on that bill, including what had rolled over at the point of moving to Snug, Dec 11th, was £463 after paying my dd of £170.  I attach the summary section of the last bill that shows both tariff charges.