Metering Requirements of Octopus Snug

tamste

QrizB said:

tamste said:

I'm trying to get onto Snug Octopus, but .. the responses I am getting back seem to be pointing to the tariff only being acceptable for ALCS controlled heaters.
This seems to go against promoting the use of modern, efficient storage heaters. Why did I bother???

Your modern efficient storage heaters could still be switched by ALCS. Why did you choose not to keep that function?

One of the reasons for Octopus Snug being cheaper than E7 is that it lets them them vary the charging hours in response to wholesale prices and grid conditions. If your heaters aren't ALCS controlled, they can't do that - and you risk charging them during peak rate periods.

• Currently with Eon but fix ends in October.
• 3-Phase supply with E7 and a 3 phase Smart meter fitted and operational
• They are happy with the Smart Meter
• Storage heaters are Elnur HHR's and SSH's
• All heaters are on the 24hr supply only as although heaters are on L2 and L3, there is no 24hr L2 and L3 supply, so would have needed extensive rewiring to provide 24hr supply on the same phases for the heaters if charging controlled through ALCS.
• All other things in the house are on L1 which has always been 24hr.
• Issue seems to be not having them controlled through ALCS, though I am very happy to program them at an individual heater level to ensure they charge only on the times supplied, which I understand to be 00:30 to 06:30 for my region

Scot_39

0030 to 0630 is only a default and their are some other things in the operation and the T&Cs of Snug that I would need a better understanding of.

So for instance Octopus often brig forward that 0030 start time - and so allow even more than 6 hours potentially in the night time period.  And so in theory the additional 1 hr in the afternoon - takes the charge schedule over their 7 hrs fair use limit.

Secondly - users can select fewer hours (AFAIK not more hours - although if did that might be part of the fair use condition).

So there are examples on line on other forums - where users have set say 2.5 hours - and then Octopus can "optimise" the charge times to the cheapest half hourly slots - in one of those examples indicate a series of 5 on / off periods within the overnight window (but as data presented only meter 1/2 hr resolution energy use - difficult to tell for sure).

That option certainly wouldn't be available if NSH not on ALCS.

And theres the other consideration - when you also hand over their right to fit in with grid demand management demand response - they couldn't control your heaters to switch them off at high load times.

Now that may not be an issue yet - but when say 5m, 10m or in the limit 30m plus more BEV's (once ICE fully replaced) are also say demanding charge presumably many in the current overnight low demand - on home chargers or mid afternoon windows - say on office / car park charges - who knows what will happen to their chosen ALCS times.

But those are the negatives suggesting non ALCS NSH not welcome - but what about their FAQ comment

"You'll also be charged the day rate if you manually set your storage heaters to charge during peak hours." 

tamste

Happy to be charged day rate if I mis program. That's my responsibility

tamste

Also .. why do BEV's get priority over heating, which is a basic necessity!

MWT

tamste said:

Happy to be charged day rate if I mis program. That's my responsibility

The tariff is designed to give Octopus control of exactly when your heaters draw energy, you can't do that without the ALCS control.

This is the same argument that comes up with the other smart tariffs, manual control is not an option.

If that is what you want then E7 is the right tariff for you, not Snug. 

MattMattMattUK

tamste said:

Also .. why do BEV's get priority over heating, which is a basic necessity!

What makes you think that EVs get "priority"? Electricity supplies are not limited in any meaningful way, your heating is not turned off so that cars can be charged.

Swipe

tamste said:

• Swipe said:

• MWT said:

  Swipe said:

  Just tell them what they want to hear and then program the storage heaters accordingly. The ALCS will still be active on the smart meter even if the circuit has been disconnected at the consumer unit. They'll be none the wiser.

  That isn't going to work, the energy is only at the low-rate when the Octopus smart schedule decides to charge, and that schedule can an will vary from day to day according to when the energy is 'greenest'.

  You can't just set a schedule and forget it like you could with E7...

  
  

  On Snug It will always be off peak between 00:30 and 06:30 if it's not on ALCS which is why they are not happy with storage heaters on timers.

  If the Snug charging schedule is always 00:30 to 06:30, why on earth does it need to be controlled through ALCS if local heater level programming is available and used?

Because Octopus wants to be able to choose the cheapest times available for them. They may switch them on a bit earlier via ALCS if it is cheaper.

MattMattMattUK

MWT said:

tamste said:

Happy to be charged day rate if I mis program. That's my responsibility

The tariff is designed to give Octopus control of exactly when your heaters draw energy, you can't do that without the ALCS control.

This is the same argument that comes up with the other smart tariffs, manual control is not an option.

If that is what you want then E7 is the right tariff for you, not Snug. 

Exactly this. I am on Intelligent Octopus Go, my car regularly smart charges outside of off-peak hours, if I look at the generation mix I can see there is a surplus of wind or solar generation at those times, Octopus are using excess generation capacity effectively, paying less for it, which I get to benefit from, as does everyone due to fewer curtailment payments. 

If people want a smart tariff they need the relevant smart equipment or compatible setup, if they want a basic peak/off-peak setup then that is E7.

tamste

MattMattMattUK said:

tamste said:

Also .. why do BEV's get priority over heating, which is a basic necessity!

What makes you think that EVs get "priority"? Electricity supplies are not limited in any meaningful way, your heating is not turned off so that cars can be charged.

Tariffs for BEV's are much cheaper than E7 across many providers whether they are "Smart" or not, and taking power from the grid at the same time .. i.e. overnight. Some tariffs give the charge control to the provider, but others don't, making most of them E6 tariffs (most are 6 hours overnight).

Heating is a basic necessity .. owning a BEV is not.

tamste

MattMattMattUK said:

If people want a smart tariff they need the relevant smart equipment or compatible setup, if they want a basic peak/off-peak setup then that is E7.

Interesting .. "smart equipment" ???

How is a 30 year old storage heater with very limited controls  "smarter" than a modern, efficient version with all the additional insulation and controls?