Metering Requirements of Octopus Snug

vienna28

Phones4Chris said:

@vienna28 so you are no longer with Octopus. When you were on Snug, did you get the afternoon boost?

Yes, even through this year's summer heatwave I was still getting the hour (4pm -5pm) cheap rate.

Though between 29th April until 8th May there was a problem with timings, so whilst still on snug I reverted back to E7 timings.  So during that period I had no afternoon boost.  But from 9th May until I left Octopus near the end of July the afternoon boost was constant.

Phones4Chris

Scot_39 said:

Ildhund said:

Scot_39 said:
Theres even a user in another fourm - on it with dual wired NSH - who said IIRC they even set the meter port 5 unrestricted to enable it to work without any wiring mods.

My memory may be playing tricks on me, but the last I think I heard about this sort of modification was that the 100A ALCS contactor inside the meter was neither rated for nor safe in continuous operation. This may of course vary from meter type to meter type. Can you find the reference for your remark? 

............

Thd 24 hour kive actually in a reference to a reddit forum poster which I used in tge past to look at early snug adopters - discussing sub 6 hr switching behaviour.

But @vienna28 went back and found an update from one of the users

The link to that users updates in @vienna28 post here in July

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/81552859/#Comment_81552859


The update re Cosy and 24/7 here if I got tge link right

https://www.reddit.com/r/OctopusEnergy/comments/1f17t5m/comment/n14l866/


The historic alcs change referred to below was when got Octopus to move alcs start to c430 am rather than 0030 am whilst on Agile iirc in the original duscussion posts.

 
In case I got link  wrong I'll risk replicating the full post here

"If you have a smart meter - yes, they should be able to control what time your second circuit fires up.

Since I wrote that comment - I had a short try of Snug tariff, but after two days they said my heaters aren't compatible, and switched back to Agile; but reversing my second circuit time back to normal E7 timetable starting at 0:30am.

And then I had a huge problem finding someone able to adjust it to my needs again. This time it took 3 weeks of back and forth emails - perplexing, as the first time over it was so easy. Now suddenly nobody seemed to know how to do that again.

I finally decided to ask them to release it completely, so now it's on 24/7, and I automate my heaters myself - to suit into Cosy tariff cheaper slots."

I would not rely heavily on a lot of the information in those reddit threads as clearly there's a number of posters there that don't have sufficient technical knowledge to express the information clearly or correctly.
One obvious example is the mention of "boost", I'm fairly sure that not all Smart Meters have a Boost function IIRC.

Phones4Chris

@jodie264 You must be getting a bit frustrated with all that tech rhubarb posted on your Exit Fee thread! However, one thing worth checking on. Can you go back and look at your Snug billing and maybe App/Account Usage graph plots, the plots should show when the rates were off-peak and peak, from Snug start 11/12/24 to end 19/04/25 and see if there was any storage heater/water heater usage outside the Snug times (I think you said they were 0030-0630 but correct me if wrong)? Are there any gaps in the data?

jodie264

I'm not sure about times - I never gave that much of a thought because it had been out of my control since I moved into the house in 1981!  It would have been great to have had the afternoon boost yes, but as someone else said, it still beat the previous tariff.  Here is a page for usage when I wa son SNUG   KwH and £s  

jodie264

Ill send the same for March 25  - the first time on SNUG 

jodie264

sorry - for some reason Ive sent a sept 25 with the other two.  Ignore - though i wonder why sept 8 shows as snug becuase id not been put back on it on that date in sept!  
here are three from 11th March this year BEFORE ALL the problems!  

Phones4Chris

The 8th & 9th January ones seem to confirm the Snug rates 0030-0630 but no afternoon rate! This suggests something wasn't programmed correctly.
As we can't see the end of the 9th table, can't be sure what's happening to usage 0630-0700. Do you often/occasionally use a bit more energy then - getting up, making breakfast, coffee, tea, etc.?

jodie264

The 'spikes in usage reflect my usage.  I never had the afternoon boost.  My point has always been that my usage as shown on bills reflects my actual usage - including historically.  The times the overnight shows more is when I have had a bath the day before or done cleaning etc so the hot water needs to reach the temperature...thats what Ive always expected to happen

Scot_39

If you look at the 4 from Jan and Mar - whilst on snug rates - in all of those examples your energy usage is high before the snug rate kicks in at 00:30 - so the energy used recorded in 00:00 to 00:30 meter time slot is much higher than your normal usage - and aligns much closer - with the usage after 00:30 - for your heating systems.

Assuming you have some minutes of preset ALCS offset - that first slot you would expect to be less.

Say if alcs switched at 5 mins in - at 00:05 in the meter slot - it would only record 25 mins use - I'd hazard a guess yours might be even lower than 5 mins - maybe only 2-3 minutes - but device loads aren't always fixed.

Usage per half hour - In the 3-4kWh range - effectively suggesting 6-8kW of devices active - say 1 3kW immerison - or 2-3 NSH depending on their charge ratings - assuming at least one full size in the 3-3.5 kWh range

That to me suggests to me you were in fact stuck on E7 ALCS timings before 00:30 - and that snug's control of your meter was NOT operating correctly on any one of those days.

If Octopus had brought the cheap rate forward - I believe it shows on charts - I'd have to hunt here or on reddit threads for the advanced examples to check.

Those 4 days looks to me exactly like the first two lines in my other thread post trying to explain the implications of their failure to control.  The 2.14.9 clause in the T&Cs

"From 00:00 to 00:30 - your heating power would be on on E7 presets - but charged snug day rate ?

From 00:30 to 06:30 - your heating power would be on on E7 presets - and charged 9p off peak rate ?"

The third line isn't obvious from the energy use on some of those 4 days - as some or all of your device thermostats had already cut power demand.

"From 06:30 to 07:00 - your heating power would be on on E7 presets - but charged snug day rate ?"

But you can see the impact of high use in the 06:30 to 07:00 slot and a little ALCS delay on the 07:00 to 07:30 slots on both the 9th Jan and 12th Mar examples. 

If those profiles are consistent from Dec 2024 E7 to Snug Octopus switch - to April - I am not sure they were actually ever able to control your meter for the Snug tariff.

It seems strange though given another user on another forum - was told reportedly literally within days Snug wasnt able to control his meter. 

The problem with clever tariffs and clever meters - is they are sadly pushin meter tech into the realms of needing to do that sort of almost forensic for want of a better term - to ensure the are working.

And the problem with that - is you have to know what your looking for to see it.

Edit 2

Users of course really shouldn't have to - suppliers should.  But having seen some of the things thers have beentold by CS - do worry if they really have the people to do so - or those that do - are accessible / getting the feedback

As to why they show 9p even if failed to control the night slot - but show day rate 3-4 pm - when they havent - my only guess would be they auto detect the night failure - and therefore dont try for the day afternoon boost - and so dont register the 9p. 

Edit

Remeber the 9p applies any time - not just core hours - if they have activated the ALCS.

And always applies at core hours anyway - even if you cut the heating time down below the 6 hours max core slot time - in the portal - which seems to be backed up by the tests @vienna28 did at least when he went from 4.5 to 3 hours. 

So the pricing 0030 to 0630 isnt an indication of successful control - just core hours.

Outside core hours - no schedule no 9p - schedule outside core 0030 to 0630 - at literally anytime of day or night - you get the 9p.

Phones4Chris

@jodie264 I'm guessing that your individual meter offset (back in January) could/might have been about 5 minutes. March does suggest it was maybe only 2 or 3 minutes, odd! Now that was all during GMT times. Now that we are on BST, everything will be an hour later. Could you have a look at say April and post a day energy usage?
Another separate question, before you moved to Snug, when you were on E7, what were your actual off-peak hours?