PIP was 2nd claim with new conditions but from 15 April 2025 new 3rd claim as advised.

Muttleythefrog

tifo said:

peteuk said:

Driving/drivers licence was the biggest trap I spotted in PIP assessing.   It opens all sorts of discussions, parking (distance from car to door, ability to plan a route, grip, ability to learn unless theres been a significant injury which changes this etc etc) 

I'm finding out it is a trap, but i've still not worked out why those alleged 3.7 million or so on PIP are allowed to have a driving license and especially with a motability car. I know there will be evidence etc of their conditions other than being able to drive but i don't think all the 3.7 million will have.

I do get that others on here have explained the driving license issue but i find it hard getting my head around why, for me, it's used in almost every descriptor.

It's used in several activities to justify descriptor choice (zero scoring) I suspect because as you've done across 31 pages here you've not explained your disablement relevantly that gives rise to overlooking the fact or putting it into context. It's possible that happens as you don't have notable restrictions on task completion but it's possible you're just not explaining well. Bear in mind to be considered able to perform a task regarding PIP activities you have to be able to do so reliably... so in your mind throughout the claim process you should already be in the mode of thinking that while able to do things there are factors to consider that mean you should be considered not able to do them. For example I can get dressed... what I can't do is get dressed in reasonable time... and I go into full explanation as to why that is and how things play out when I try to get dressed and therefore why it takes so long, why it is distressing, tiring and why I need help and what help I get and how that helps me... I point to diagnosed condition that underpins my explanation.

I suggested it was not likely going to be helpful to quote from the assessment report. But perhaps we need examples to try to help you overcome this very tiring line of thinking which continues to take you away from what you actually need to do and say which is make a coherent, evidenced, methodical explanation of relevant disablements... or indeed conclude you have insufficient to qualify and move on.

What was the full justification (in assessor's report) for choice of zero point scoring descriptors on say Activity 1 preparing food, Activity 4 Washing/Bathing, activity 8 Reading, activity 11 Journeys. These cover different areas of disablement as I would see them in terms of your proposed problems.

born_again

TBH.
What do you think a SofR is going to gain here, over going for a MR?
At a guess they will just cite the reasons given by the assessor who is medically trained unlike the DM. Which will not help you with a MR.

I get that you have conditions & issues that effect your daily life. But like others. From what has been posted, nothing jumps out that says you have been poorly treated by the assessors over your claims. Given previous MR's & tribunals.

You do not seems to be getting meaningful help from Shelter in applying. So are there any other groups that could help you, even if they are online.
Such as Turn2us pip helper?

In reality, if you put as much effort into filling the form in, reading & understanding the descriptors & how your replies fit into getting the points, as you do with the replies in the multi pages over 2 threads. You might already be getting PIP.🤷‍♀️

Muttleythefrog

tifo said:

On here https://www.mentalhealthandmoneyadvice.org/en/welfare-benefits/pip-mental-health-guide/challenging-a-pip-decision/mandatory-reconsideration-for-pip/ it says "When you receive your PIP decision letter, you can ask the DWP for written reasons as to why they made their decision. Asking for their reasons may help put forward your argument for a mandatory consideration as you could be able to challenge the reasoning. You should ask as soon as possible, as the process can take up to 14 days".

I didn't know i could ask for a statement of reasons like for a tribunal decision. Should i ask for this? The DM has simply copied and pasted from the assessment report, some word for word. I don't think there was any looking at the claim and making their own mind up.

Waste of time.... forget it... I doubt it'd tell you anything further of use... they'll likely just point to their best and recent evidence of the Assessor's report (which I've not seen anything to suggest is flawed or unreasonable) and you've already had that looked over in complaint and they feel it suitable. I don't think it would offer anything useful to either an MR, a later appeal or indeed a new claim... it just prolongs largely pointless debate and indecision. An MR in any case is essentially a second opinion... by another DM looking at the evidence... likely result is the same... an appeal carries greater chance of success in general stats.

"But ..... do i really need to bombard the DWP with case law for a MR?" - no... case law may help you understand the high benchmark of disablements as Spoonie indicates... this may help you understand where you sit in terms of relevant point scoring if any. (Case law can offer insight into where boundaries of disability lie when looked at in detail.. cases can also offer good commentary on how the descriptors are applied). In any MR you need to make a positive case for the relevant descriptors which apply to you... engaging with others... explain how that plays out.. what problems you have... give examples...what help do you need... etc. Same for appeal where a tribunal may be less inclined to rely on the assessor's report and take a better approach to the range of evidence on offer.

Focus! As someone points out above your efforts seem misdirected.

tifo

born_again said:

TBH.
What do you think a SofR is going to gain here, over going for a MR?
At a guess they will just cite the reasons given by the assessor who is medically trained unlike the DM. Which will not help you with a MR.

I get that you have conditions & issues that effect your daily life. But like others. From what has been posted, nothing jumps out that says you have been poorly treated by the assessors over your claims. Given previous MR's & tribunals.

You do not seems to be getting meaningful help from Shelter in applying. So are there any other groups that could help you, even if they are online.
Such as Turn2us pip helper?

In reality, if you put as much effort into filling the form in, reading & understanding the descriptors & how your replies fit into getting the points, as you do with the replies in the multi pages over 2 threads. You might already be getting PIP.🤷‍♀️

"In reality, if you put as much effort into filling the form in, reading & understanding the descriptors & how your replies fit into getting the points, as you do with the replies in the multi pages over 2 threads. You might already be getting PIP".

"Focus! As someone points out above your efforts seem misdirected".

You're right, the amount of effort I put into my previous PIP claim and WCA was huge, hence I think I gave too much information and I seem to be doing the same here but I've yet to do the MR and tribunal, as you and other posters rightly say these need to be more focused.


The point I made to myself this time is to learn the mistakes from the previous claim, once I know what they were!

"Given previous MR's & tribunals".

I lost the previous tribunal because the judge said she didn't believe me. With the same info albeit some focused on work I won the WCA tribunal. As I've said many times, the DWP used both reports in both tribunals and the PIP judge knew I'd been given LCW based on 4 points but then 'risk' based on mental health issues. But because she didn't believe me she would not consider the same 'risk' on mental health.

The Dr in the WCA tribunal was good with me, he pointed me to some affects of my conditions that I didn't say and I believe I may have won on his opinion. The Dr and mental health expect at the PIP tribunal didn't do the same and I think took the judge's line when she said it.

peteuk

tifo said:

peteuk said:

Driving/drivers licence was the biggest trap I spotted in PIP assessing.   It opens all sorts of discussions, parking (distance from car to door, ability to plan a route, grip, ability to learn unless theres been a significant injury which changes this etc etc) 

I'm finding out it is a trap, but i've still not worked out why those alleged 3.7 million or so on PIP are allowed to have a driving license and especially with a motability car. I know there will be evidence etc of their conditions other than being able to drive but i don't think all the 3.7 million will have.

I do get that others on here have explained the driving license issue but i find it hard getting my head around why, for me, it's used in almost every descriptor.

Because not all conditions for PIP are physical - If I have a severe mental illness I score for washing, dressing, cooking, eating - driving a car doesnt come into it because although I physically can do these activities the mental health condition means I need assitance/encouragement to undertake these. 

Stop worrying about why others get PIP and you dont and focus on why you dont versus the activites/descriptors. 

If you drive once a week, to the supermarker every week.  What ever you say about pain, restriction of movement for your physical conditions will be ignored.  Your contradicting yourself and hence why your getting Nil point PIP assessments. 

peteuk

chrisw said:

An interesting discussion! Couple of points - you can request a face-to-face assessment in your own home which avoids the need to go to an assessment centre if you would find the struggle too much.

Home visits are (or were) few and far between and you would need a extremely good reason for a home visit.   I would believe the threshold for this is even higher now telephone assessments are the norm. 

peteuk

chrisw said:

An interesting discussion! Couple of points - you can request a face-to-face assessment in your own home which avoids the need to go to an assessment centre if you would find the struggle too much.

Home visits are (or were) few and far between and you would need a extremely good reason for a home visit.   I would believe the threshold for this is even higher now telephone assessments are the norm. 

tifo

Had my appointment with Shelter today and they won't help with the MR. They only help if there is chance of an award and while they think I can get some points it won't be 8 on either section for an award.

They think there is a chance of 3 points in the daily living. 1 point for activity 3(b) needing help with medication (eye drops), 2 points for activity 4(b) washing and bathing uses an aid (a stool to sit down and bathe).

They think there is the possibility of 2 or 4 points for activity 9(b) 2 points for prompting to engage with people or 9(c) 4 points needs support for engaging with people ONLY if the anxiety and/or OCD is taken into account BUT that this is unlikely without a diagnosis and treatment.

I agree with the above and add that if I got 2 points for needing help with eye drops like I got previously THEN I can reach 8 points (2+2+4) but I'd have to be very lucky for the MR. If not they said it'd be 3 points only.

However, I personally would say 8 points for activity 9(d) is possible WITH an anxiety/OCD diagnosis and ongoing treatment because I know how much I'm affected with the psychological distress but my claim needs a lot of work.

The Shelter lady agreed that the assessor saying having my partner with me at hospital appts means I'm ok engaging with people is the wrong assumption and that it means the opposite, i.e. I need the support. Which is what I say.

For mobility they don't think I'll get any points but I thought I have more chance of mobility points than care but according to them I'm close to a care award by updating my medical record but not near an award for mobility. Whilst my gout and osteoarthritis (OA) affect me they don't think it's in the majority. BUT this is by taking account of severe gout days only and not the moderate or mild days. Much like what the assessor did.

I say I should score (b) 4 points for can move 50 to 200 metres with mild gout/OA or (c) 8 points for can move 20 to 50 metres when moderate gout/OA or (e) 12 points for can move 1 to 20 metres when severe gout. Taking into account OA which is mild at the moment but occasionally moderate I'd realistically think I'd get max 8 points in mobility for gout but 4 points is likely. I don't use an aid, eg walking stick so I  can't ask for 10 points for (d). Saying all this, I want to argue the maximum points I can get.

She even suggested possible 2 points for 6(b) dressing/undressing as sitting down can be seen as an aid (which I do with gout or OA episode).

There is the possibility of some points for planning/following a journey but again this is with a anxiety/ocd diagnosis and treatment as it's kind of related with engaging with people.

The Shelter lady didn't consider how I am compared to an able person and I brought this up, saying I can walk by limping with moderate gout or OA but it takes me double the time and I have to rest after a while.

She said I'm OK engaging with her but I said the rules/case law means engaging meaningfully with someone etc (this was in pipinfo and case law).

So ..... I can go for an MR myself and there is the possibility of 8 points for care with an understanding case manager if they take into account how anxiety/ocd affect me as my medical record is at the moment otherwise it could be 3 or 4 points only. Or more likely 0 points as most MRs don't change the decision.

Or ...... I can make a new claim. I'll talk to my GP for an anxiety/ocd diagnosis and go on a treatment plan then Shelter will help and there is a possibility of a lower care award and maybe a lower mobility award.

Having no medication for the mild OA doesn't help even though the GP said just use your gout medicines. At the moment it's not taken into account for anything.

I joked to the Shelter lady that I'll see her in 4 months when they give me 0 points again!

tifo

Today my OA is moderately affecting me as the right knee is quite stiff and painful. The left knee was diagnosed with OA in October last year so it seems to be in both knees now. I think this year it'll need more treatment not just the gout tablets, the GP may refer me for physio but other than that, or exercise, there's surgery but I'm not at that stage.

Muttleythefrog

The Shelter advisor seems to have considered things carefully and reasonably - I had concern they would not but clearly they have thought strategically about your situation and I think you have been fortunate to get this level of tailored advice. I have no reason to think their assessment is inaccurate. They clearly, like me, feel that you're doomed to fail to get sufficient points unless you have underlying OCD medical condition diagnosed etc (which you think will elevate scoring notably and I felt imperative to having a chance to do so). I'm pleased you seem to be grasping that... however I'm still not convinced you'll meet the necessary benchmarks as your activity (and ironically attempt to argue with the advisor) seem to indicate limited disablements. There is a strong theme throughout of trying to push boundaries to fit criteria but we here cannot know where the disablements lie other than based on what you report. Ultimately it's not my claim and you should know you best... you have had outstanding advice including on next course of action from members here and Shelter I would say. Good luck!