PIP was 2nd claim with new conditions but from 15 April 2025 new 3rd claim as advised.

Spoonie_Turtle

born_again said:

tifo said:

sheramber said:

What examples do you have that you cannot engage with people?

Not engaging with people in a waiting room is not unusual. I do not engage with people in my GP’s waiting room, or at the dentist or  at the  hospital.
 

The only people I see engaging with each other are people who have come together. 

I didn't say anything about engaging with people in a waiting room (though I don't). I said the assessor's reason for not giving any point for engaging with people is that, because my partner comes to hospital appts with me, i'm capable of engaging with people outside or at any time.

So when you go to the hospital/doctors with partner.
Who speaks to the doctor?

Irrelevant though, because being able to handle appointments and even stressful assessments is not the same as being able to engage appropriately in various life situations.

(Not that the OP has given any actual examples of struggling with that activity.  Just, it seems to me there's no point getting further sidetracked.)

tifo

Spoonie_Turtle said:

born_again said:

tifo said:

sheramber said:

What examples do you have that you cannot engage with people?

Not engaging with people in a waiting room is not unusual. I do not engage with people in my GP’s waiting room, or at the dentist or  at the  hospital.
 

The only people I see engaging with each other are people who have come together. 

I didn't say anything about engaging with people in a waiting room (though I don't). I said the assessor's reason for not giving any point for engaging with people is that, because my partner comes to hospital appts with me, i'm capable of engaging with people outside or at any time.

So when you go to the hospital/doctors with partner.
Who speaks to the doctor?

Irrelevant though, because being able to handle appointments and even stressful assessments is not the same as being able to engage appropriately in various life situations.

(Not that the OP has given any actual examples of struggling with that activity.  Just, it seems to me there's no point getting further sidetracked.)

"Irrelevant though, because being able to handle appointments and even stressful assessments is not the same as being able to engage appropriately in various life situations".

This is what i was going to say.

tifo

HillStreetBlues said:

teaselMay said:

Op what do you think you should score in all of the descriptors? And why

Good luck with getting an answer, nailing jelly to the wall would be easier.

I think jelly sticks but slides off.

I'm going to do this as did it for the previous PIP claim and will need it for the MR and my appointment with Shelter next week. 

tifo

sheramber said:

tifo said:
 

I didn't say anything about engaging with people in a waiting room (though I don't). I said the assessor's reason for not giving any point for engaging with people is that, because my partner comes to hospital appts with me, i'm capable of engaging with people outside or at any time.

Ahem

It says in the section for mixing with people that since I'm ok going to hospital (and my partner goes with me) I'm ok mixing with people. But I don't mix with people at hospital as sit and see the clinician and come back home but have to go to appointments.

That shows you can go into a room with other people. 

What examples do you have of not being able do so?

You seem to be giving general  statements of what  you cannot do.

Saying you are not able to do something sometimes is not  the majority of the time. 

"That shows you can go into a room with other people".

I may be wrong but sitting in a room with other patients and having no interaction isn't 'mixing' to me.

"What examples do you have of not being able do so?"

To me 'mixing' is in a social situation (I may be wrong) for example going to a restaurant, or to someone's home, or attending an event, or on holiday (I haven't been abroad for 20 years), or going shopping but keeping away from people and, with OCD, touching things as less as possible then constantly washing hands or using hand wipes (I have a large supply).

In the assessment I said that i don't like to eat with people because my sinuses are always blocked due to my eye condition (my tears collect at the top of my nose whereas for normal people they go down your throat) and every few weeks i'll have cold symptoms to clear it out, i'm very sensitive to smells and it blocks my nose within seconds and i sneeze and have a runny nose for a while, my eye tears up regularly and my nose always runs with eating food (the smells get to me), for this reason i said i don't go eat out with a group as people won't want me sneezing and sniffling when we're eating, i don't like to shake hands and in my community people will do this first thing, i then tend to try and keep away from them so i don't have to, i've actually said this to some like "i'm sorry but i don't shake hands", oud, attar and hair oil/gel is also an issue for me as people wear these and the slightest smell of it blocks my nose within seconds and i sneeze and have a runny nose for a while, maybe the whole day as it's sometimes triggered by small things.

There's also the anxiety that comes into it and i'm very conscious of how my eye looks, don't want questions so i just don't meet people and avoid any situation where i might have to, for gout i think most of the local community are used to it and it's a matter of ignoring it. I worry about everything, for example my day is run by the post delivery (and has been for a decade or more) as i'm fearful of what letters will come, usually i'm having to fight with my mortgage provider and utility suppliers as i've been more in arrears since becoming ill in 2018, every day is a constant fight with trying to resolve issues with one or the other (i have a thread on here about my british gas issues), the mortgage provider leaves me alone for a while then starts again so it's letters threatening home visits and i stay in all day not knowing when someone will come (they have on a few occasions) even when i've sorted it out (this is where Shelter have helped and also not helped in the past). Solicitors are quick to issue (repossession) proceedings as that's how they make money. I have no problems dealing with legal documents as i've worked in this industry in the past for many years, IT being my other skill set as a network engineer and web developer. When i did work this was from home as i don't need to meet people and nearly everything can be done by telephone and email. I've never met many of my clients.

I'm quiet irritable most of the time and sometimes come across badly with people, esp at home. I've said in this thread that i have memory recall problems but the GP said it's nothing, but for me it's real and I sometimes can't recall things and get brain fog, everything goes blank for a while. I feel i have so much to do and sometimes things are overwhelming me but i've no one to speak to or tell them how i am. I told the assessor i get heart palpitations, sweaty palms, feel out of breath esp if i'm walking, and i always feel fatigued, on occasions i'll doze off in the late afternoon or evening when sat on the sofa at home and i can feel this is happening but don't have the energy to get up so i'm in and out of consciousness. It doesn't happen much if i'm busy with something though it has happened if i'm visiting relatives and they jokingly say "you dozed off" and i say "no i didn't, i just felt tired not to stop it". I mentioned regular headaches to the assessor due to stress or anxiety and also my eye condition as my nerves are in a constant state of inflammation and this gives me migraines after some days, severe enough to make me have to lie down for a few hours. I feel lightheaded too on many occasions and feel pain at the top left of my head going down the left of my face and it feels numb. I know some will say it could be a sign of stroke but i've had this for around 30 years (I used to have it in the late 90's and got checked out at hospital who said it's nothing that they can see) and it happens regularly. As a side note here i've had this constant headache since yesterday evening and the same thumping pain in the same place at the top of my head and the side of my face feeling it.

The above and lots more was discussed in the assessment but in the descriptors the assessor ignored everything about anxiety and OCD and said as I have a driving licence I can carry out the relevant activity reliably.

I was sweating (palms, underarms) for most of the morning of the assessment as getting myself psyched up for the telephone call, which they rang to delay and rang to delay again then called 20 mins late and throughout the call I was sweating with my voice shaking occasionally and rapid breathing. The assessor says I came across fine with good speech and memory but from my side i tried very hard to do this and my memory may not have served as best as it could and i didn't either reply as i should have or just didn't remember the point i should have made.

From my skill sets i'm not someone who wants to be on benefit or not working. This current claim on UC is the second time in my life (i'm in my mid 50s) that i've come onto JC apart from a few months in the mid 90s when i was out of Uni and searching for work or training.

Muttleythefrog

I can see your problem.... you say a lot but little specifically disabling and relevant. You even use words to indicate choices not disablement.. and being blunt.. it sounds more like attempts to find periphery problems that could be considered relevant and hoping something sticks... and this is what happened when they looked at your mobility issues in assessment. The assessor essentially ignored your OCD related issues as you seemed to raise them irrelevantly and you never reported such a condition before nor do you have any paperwork to suggest you have OCD or have reported it to a medical professional before. This isn't to say you do not have OCD or reported problems but assessors will use paths of low resistance. Hence my advice that a new claim with such evidence may be better. 

"I'm going to do this as did it for the previous PIP claim and will need it for the MR and my appointment with Shelter next week. " - problem is you should have done it before applying... it was supposed to be your bible throughout the claim... at every stage you argue for what descriptors reflect your disablement and are clear in your mind which they are. Now you are in a situation of changing such thoughts as you've changed the medical conditions you're considering disablement since you applied this time.

Trying to be blunt and honest so you get an appreciation for how others much more important than me may be seeing things or may see things that are coming.

tifo

Muttleythefrog said:

I can see your problem.... you say a lot but little specifically disabling and relevant. You even use words to indicate choices not disablement.. and being blunt.. it sounds more like attempts to find periphery problems that could be considered relevant and hoping something sticks... and this is what happened when they looked at your mobility issues in assessment. The assessor essentially ignored your OCD related issues as you seemed to raise them irrelevantly and you never reported such a condition before nor do you have any paperwork to suggest you have OCD or have reported it to a medical professional before. This isn't to say you do not have OCD or reported problems but assessors will use paths of low resistance. Hence my advice that a new claim with such evidence may be better. 

"I'm going to do this as did it for the previous PIP claim and will need it for the MR and my appointment with Shelter next week. " - problem is you should have done it before applying... it was supposed to be your bible throughout the claim... at every stage you argue for what descriptors reflect your disablement and are clear in your mind which they are. Now you are in a situation of changing such thoughts as you've changed the medical conditions you're considering disablement since you applied this time.

Trying to be blunt and honest so you get an appreciation for how others much more important than me may be seeing things or may see things that are coming.

"Trying to be blunt and honest so you get an appreciation for how others much more important than me may be seeing things or may see things that are coming".

That's fine, i can take negative or positive criticism.

"I'm going to do this as did it for the previous PIP claim and will need it for the MR and my appointment with Shelter next week. " - problem is you should have done it before applying... it was supposed to be your bible throughout the claim... at every stage you argue for what descriptors reflect your disablement and are clear in your mind which they are".

You're right, and it comes back to me leaving things to the last moment and hurrying them then forgetting information. It's a problem i have. I had the information from my previous PIP claim as did it for MR and tribunal but hurried the PIP form and didn't look at my previous documents. 

Spoonie_Turtle

tifo said:

Muttleythefrog said:

I can see your problem.... you say a lot but little specifically disabling and relevant. You even use words to indicate choices not disablement.. and being blunt.. it sounds more like attempts to find periphery problems that could be considered relevant and hoping something sticks... and this is what happened when they looked at your mobility issues in assessment. The assessor essentially ignored your OCD related issues as you seemed to raise them irrelevantly and you never reported such a condition before nor do you have any paperwork to suggest you have OCD or have reported it to a medical professional before. This isn't to say you do not have OCD or reported problems but assessors will use paths of low resistance. Hence my advice that a new claim with such evidence may be better. 

"I'm going to do this as did it for the previous PIP claim and will need it for the MR and my appointment with Shelter next week. " - problem is you should have done it before applying... it was supposed to be your bible throughout the claim... at every stage you argue for what descriptors reflect your disablement and are clear in your mind which they are. Now you are in a situation of changing such thoughts as you've changed the medical conditions you're considering disablement since you applied this time.

Trying to be blunt and honest so you get an appreciation for how others much more important than me may be seeing things or may see things that are coming.

"I'm going to do this as did it for the previous PIP claim and will need it for the MR and my appointment with Shelter next week. " - problem is you should have done it before applying... it was supposed to be your bible throughout the claim... at every stage you argue for what descriptors reflect your disablement and are clear in your mind which they are".

You're right, and it comes back to me leaving things to the last moment and hurrying them then forgetting information. It's a problem i have. I had the information from my previous PIP claim as did it for MR and tribunal but hurried the PIP form and didn't look at my previous documents. 

If there is a next time it doesn't have to be like that.  Go through the assessment guidance, the descriptors, and write up your answers at your own pace before you even start the claim.  Since none of your claims have resulted in an award I'd be wary of referring to previous documents to be honest, unless they are just guidance; you need to do any future claim with fresh eyes, focusing on the activities and not getting sidetracked. 

That's what I had to do for my first claim because I knew I didn't have the energy or brainpower to do it all thoroughly in the timeframe given (even though it was 3 months at the time not the usual 1).  I didn't get an award from my assessment because the assessor chose not to believe me, but fortunately I got a DWP DM who actually considered my MR request, and having a fairly decent form helped me get an appropriate award at that stage.  And this time, the assessor was good although made a strange non-scoring choice for one activity, but the DWP DM overrode that and gave me the right award - again I am grateful and I know I was fortunate with both people involved, but I do believe it could very well have been harder for them to do a good job if my form hadn't been good enough.

Wider issues can be mentioned in the 'further information' or judiciously where they help paint the relative picture for a certain activity (so for instance I mentioned having to sit to wash my hands because I can't stand for long enough to do that, in activities where needing to sit was relevant, to paint a consistent picture even though washing hands isn't part of any assessed activity.  But not being able to stand is relevant for cooking, washing, and moving around [and dressing, although needing to sit specifically doesn't score any points there]).


I have to be honest though and say from your multiple long threads I've not seen evidence and examples that would lead me to conclude you reach the high threshold to score for enough of the time for PIP.  However, writing comments on a thread is not the same as giving specific examples and focusing on the activities as you should do for a PIP form - and as in archaeology, absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence.  (But you definitely can't expect a benefit award without evidence, telling them about your specific difficulties and why you meet the threshold for certain descriptors.)  So I'm not going so far as to say I don't think you qualify, just that what you've told us I don't think reaches the threshold.  We'd expect your PIP form to be more focused and specific.

You also need to know that the threshold for scoring on the 'mixing with people' activity is particularly high.  You might find reading case law useful to calibrate your expectations: https://pipinfo.net/activities/engaging-with-other-people-face-to-face

And as a general helpful link if you do decide to claim again taking into account mental illness: https://www.mentalhealthandmoneyadvice.org/en/welfare-benefits/pip-mental-health-guide/help-with-your-pip-claim/how-to-fill-in-the-pip-form/

Plus I think it's worth reiterating that even if you don't reach the PIP threshold, your struggles still exist and are valid.  Whether they reach the arbitrary threshold set in law doesn't change the impact they're having on your life.

peteuk

When it comes to Activity 9 - the catch all is as follows

Where, as a result of past intervention, the claimant is now able to engage with other people satisfactorily and without further help, then the claimant does not need support for face to face engagement.

So if your husband takes you appointments - like I do with my wife, as support she doesnt need it, just a nicety- are you able to discuss things with the health care professional?  If you are then all other evidence is irrelevant.  It clearly states you dont need support.   THis is why you really need to read and understand the activities. 

I had a report sent back to me because the claimant spoke to the women at the check out in the suppermarket. They didnt like using self service counters. 

tifo

I've had the reply from maximus for my 'complaint'.

It starts with "As part of my investigation, I have arranged for a Client Relations Medical Advisor (CRMA) to complete a review of your complaint alongside the report. The CRMA is a senior clinician, who works alongside the Client Relations Team. This review is carried out from a clinical perspective and is intended to identify any potential issues of quality, detail, consistency and medical justification with any such issues being reported directly to the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP)".

Then:

"Obsessive compulsive disorder (OCD) - You explained the report does not reflect how your OCD and anxiety affects you daily. The CRMA has advised the questionnaire received nor the available medical evidence reports an OCD diagnosis or restrictions. The history of conditions also does not list this as a reported condition. Therefore, it is not possible for the reviewing CRMA to clarify around any potential restrictions caused by this condition".

So saying that because OCD wasn't in the PIP form or a diagnosis on my GP record it could not be taken into account.

I might be wrong but i thought since it's a part of the assessment it would be taken into account, and we spent around 20 mins talking about it about how it affects me going out and interacting with people.

"Engaging with others -  You explained the HP has downplayed how your conditions affect your ability to engage with others. The history of conditions shows no mental health medications, and your mental health is currently managed by your GP. There is currently no medical evidence which would support an alternative descriptor in relation to your reliability to engage most days".

This is for the anxiety though depression has been on my GP record since beginning of 2019. I'd said that it's a big assumption going from accompanied hospital visits to being able to engage with people outside as a reason that this activity can be carried out reliably.

"Driving ability - You explained you feel as you are able to drive, the HP has assumed you can carry out all daily activities. The CRMA has advised that no one piece of medical evidence gathered within a consultation report, would be used to support descriptor advice".

I'd said that they used being able to drive as a reason to say I can carry out all activities reliably and it's used in most descriptors.

It finishes with:

"Quality of the report - The outcome of the CRMA’s review is that the information and advice contained within the report is medically reasonable and appropriately justified. The HP has completed all recommended actions as per Maximus' professional guidelines and the DWP criteria, to produce a report to the required standards which is based on the current information we have available".

Which i'd expected them to say. Then they've referred me to an MR.

tifo

Spoonie_Turtle said:

If there is a next time it doesn't have to be like that.  Go through the assessment guidance, the descriptors, and write up your answers at your own pace before you even start the claim.  Since none of your claims have resulted in an award I'd be wary of referring to previous documents to be honest, unless they are just guidance; you need to do any future claim with fresh eyes, focusing on the activities and not getting side tracked.

You also need to know that the threshold for scoring on the 'mixing with people' activity is particularly high.  You might find reading case law useful to calibrate your expectations: https://pipinfo.net/activities/engaging-with-other-people-face-to-face

And as a general helpful link if you do decide to claim again taking into account mental illness: https://www.mentalhealthandmoneyadvice.org/en/welfare-benefits/pip-mental-health-guide/help-with-your-pip-claim/how-to-fill-in-the-pip-form/

Plus I think it's worth reiterating that even if you don't reach the PIP threshold, your struggles still exist and are valid.  Whether they reach the arbitrary threshold set in law doesn't change the impact they're having on your life.

I'm considering a next time and will ask the Shelter advisor next week.

What i worry is that PIP will say "he's failed and is just trying again with same conditions" but this time i'll have visited my GP and discussed my quiet severe anxiety as well as OCD. It'll be on my record and they may put me on medication. And these will be new conditions as the assessment has clearly not taken these into account and they say so.

This PIP assessment referred to the previous one from 2021 so they do look at them, my referring to previous documents won't matter I think as they'll consider them in the assessment anyway.

I've looked at pipinfo and many other websites as well as the govt guidance websites and much of this was in my previous PIP MR in 2021 and tribunal in 2022, that's why i had so so much info in them.