PIP was 2nd claim with new conditions but from 15 April 2025 new 3rd claim as advised.

tifo

peteuk said:

tifo said:

Some extracts from the decision notes:

Mostly it's a repeat of the descriptors and then "I decided that you can manage these activities".

"You drive a car which requires a reasonable level of upper and lower limb strength, grip, range of movement and core stability as well as competent level of reading ability, memory, cognition and concentration". I said I drive when i can which is not always.

"When engaging with the assessor you coped well, was not anxious or withdrawn and did not need any prompting". I tried to answer the best i could and many times asked her to repeat the question.

"There is no evidence of any prescribed anxiolytic medication and you do not receive any specialist input for your mental health. Your functional history report shows no abandoned journeys and no panic attacks leaving the home. Your assessment showed you have no cognitive impairments and you possess adequate memory and concentration. During the assessment you coped well with adequate rapport. You communicated clearly and effectively without the need for prompting and with no signs of overwhelming psychological distress". Basically saying i'm on no anxiety medication and have no mental or memory issues. Nothing about my OCD and how i said it affects me in terms of going out (i don't most times) and especially how i am at home and in public spaces and the routines that i have to do with a lot of things.

"The functional history report shows you report being able to walk 30 minutes without stopping at a normal pace 4 or 5 times a week which is the majority of days". This is in response to shopping when in reality nobody, not even able bodied people, walk around a supermarket non stop for 30 mins, everyone pauses and stops at many stages in their shop to browse or pick up items. And many times it's not 30 minutes of non stop walking in a shop as it might be a quick 5 minutes in and out. It does not specifically state 'shopping' but i know it is because the assessor said i can walk around a supermarket for 30 minutes and it was also stated in my previous claim.

"You only take analgesia for your severe gout flare ups, you report flare ups 12 times a year and there is no evidence of any specialist input. I decided you can stand and then move more than 200 metres". Obviously i can't with severe or mild gout and i don't take medication only for a flare up, i'm on constant medication for it which helps but doesn't stop it.

There's no mention of how osteoarthritis is affecting me (stiff, painful left knees but more in the left) in terms of movement or bathing, which i mentioned i can't bend it to wash my lower legs or lift my feet to wash them. The assessor specifically asked this. The same applies to dressing/undressing. With gout movement and bathing has a different difficulty. My GP said use the same medication for osteoarthritis as for gout.

Lots of other things were asked and replied to and there's no mention here. I'll see in the assessment report when i receive it.

I have said this multiple times - if the assessor can write a stronger explanation for no points in an activity, over a scoring description they will.

“You drive a car which requires a reasonable level of upper and lower limb strength, grip, range of movement and core stability as well as competent level of reading ability, memory, cognition and concentration". I said I drive when i can which is not always.”

No where in that statement does it say always - what stops you from driving gout or arthritis

“You only take analgesia for your severe gout flare ups, you report flare ups 12 times a year and there is no evidence of any specialist input.”

So now put 1+1 together =. Your gout doesn't stop you from driving for the majority of the time. 

I will put this in simplest terms - little or no medication, no specialist care, no ongoing treatment or surgical plan will provide them with the ammunition to write a stronger no point descriptor. 

Your gout doesnt stop you from bathing THE MAJORITY OF THE TIME - as it severely flares up 12 times a year. You take analgesia at this point, there is no prescription of medication for gout and no specialist input.   I dont doubt your gout hurts all the time, I dont doubt you struggle getting in and out of the bath, but the weight of the evidence is this doesnt effect your life enough to score in a PIP assessment. 

Interestingly there is no mention of the length of time of these flare ups. Are they a day, a week, longer or shorter (on average) again this will indicate the majority of the time.  Eg it flares up lasts three weeks, I get a week or two off before it flares again suggests the majority of the time.  But in your own words it’s not an issue at present and hasn’t flared up as much over the last year. 

"No where in that statement does it say always - what stops you from driving gout or arthritis".

It doesn't say always but driving is an explanation for 0 points. Gout flare ups normally stop me from driving and i've been diagnosed with osteoarthritis since last 7 months and there's been no severe yet. It's painful and it's stiff and it stops me from doing things normally and isn't severe but compared to someone without it i'm affected.

"little or no medication, no specialist care, no ongoing treatment or surgical plan will provide them with the ammunition to write a stronger no point descriptor".

I have ongoing medication (allopurinol) for gout, daily tablets since about 3 years now. And naproxen for when it flares up (came off diclofenac many years ago as Dr said it's not safe). The Dr said use the same for osteoarthritis, i suppose because gout is a form of arthritis.

"Interestingly there is no mention of the length of time of these flare ups".

The assessor asked and my reply was about 12 times a year and 3 days for severe, 4 days for moderate and it goes down to mild and goes away in 2 weeks. But i don't always get severe or moderate and many times it's mild which affects me for several days and this is how it's been over the year. So it wasn't 12 times a year severe but 12 episodes on average with a mixture of severe, moderate and mild. If that makes sense. 

tifo

Spoonie_Turtle said:

In light of peteuk's post above, I think it's worth repeating (because I've said this before on this forum, perhaps even in a thread about your first claim) that not scoring enough for PIP doesn't mean someone has no difficulties - nor even that they're not disabled. 

PIP is a high threshold but it's an arbitrary one based on arbitrary activities which are limited in scope - it doesn't even consider whether you can dry yourself after washing, look after your own grooming, keep your living space clean and safe, acquire your own food and items necessary for survival, etc. 

There are so many people who could quite rightly consider themselves to be disabled who just don't quite score enough for PIP because they can just about do the narrowly-defined activities in isolation with difficulty that doesn't reach the PIP threshold, and really struggle with the rest of real life that doesn't come under the scope of PIP.

(And interestingly in related legislation, e.g. for Carers Allowance, qualifying for PIP means a person is 'severely disabled'.)

I'm not … this isn't a comment on your case, OP, nor should anything be read into it about pursuing this claim or making a fresh one.  Take it at face value because that's how I meant it.  

The reason I'm saying the above is honestly just sparked from the above post reminding us that real difficulties can be present without reaching the PIP threshold.  Societally so much weight is put on qualifying for benefits or a Blue Badge as the only accepted proof of disability, and it can feel incredibly invalidating to be genuinely struggling in life without anything like that to 'officially' recognise and validate how hard things are.  And then the public in general buy into the belief that you're only disabled and struggling if you qualify for something official, which is not the case at all and makes life so difficult for people who do need accommodations or access arrangements but don't quite meet the narrow, arbitrary official thresholds.

Thanks and you're absolutely right in what you say. A person can be disabled (I am within the legal definition) but the PIP threshold is so high and narrow that reaching and going through is almost impossible.

"Societally so much weight is put on qualifying for benefits or a Blue Badge as the only accepted proof of disability".

I applied once (i think it was last year) and was declined the same day, no appeal allowed. It's not doubted that i have mobility issues and sometimes a blue badge would be useful even if on the minority of days. But again the threshold seems to be very high for even that.

On the government website is says "If they [council] decide that you are not eligible and you think that they did not take account of all the facts, you can ask them to consider your application again" but i was told in the council letter that there is no right of appeal.

tifo

M25 said:

Your OCD may be third time lucky, yes that's what I'm saying.

Focus is your friend. You have to narrow your symptons so the person trying to estabilsh if you are eligible can clearly see you meet the descriptors.

"Your OCD may be third time lucky, yes that's what I'm saying".

That's what some people say ..... i'm worried that trying again will seem (to people here and the DWP) that i keep trying until i get it and am wasting everyone's time. It's not like that, this claim was with new conditions. Previous claim was nearly 4 years ago. In between i didn't think about PIP.

"Focus is your friend" .... "Although I've not had sight of the papers I'd say the claim (form filling excercise) has been a disaster".

You're right and i try and focus as much as i can, i tried so much this time, wanting to learn the lessons from last time and fill the form in differently.

tifo

Maximus say they have no recording of the assessment and i should have asked before having it or recorded it myself.

EnPointe

TELLIT01 said:

I get the impression, hopefully wrongly, that the OP thinks that just having a condition on the list of those potentially entitling a person to PIP automatically means they will qualify, irrespective of how much that condition affects them.

That is absolutely not the case.  For example, I've had arthritis in both knees for many years following a motorcycle accident.  The knees are uncomfortable all the time, and quite painful some of the time.  I can still get about without the need for any artificial aids so would almost certainly not be at a level the qualify for PIP.

indeed  that is a perfectly  reasonable read of the  OPs  posts 

unfortuantely it's a commonly  held belief  but has no basis  in reality as you  correctly state  ( a belief  fuelled by  tabloid and  far right lies aobut  peopel with autism automatically getting HRMC  etc ) 

doesn;t matter how long a laundry list of diagnoses someone has or  how many  pills they are on each day  - none of that qualifies someone for PIP 

PIP is about  the  claimant;s ability ro otherwise to undertake the  activities of living  in the various domains for PIP , split into the care focused domains and the  mobility  focused domains  

born_again

tifo said:

born_again said:

Something that jumped out at me.

this went against me in my previous PIP claim as the tribunal panel commented that i was able to write the submission bundle myself, all 127 pages of it,

Maybe think of using a computer & typing anything like this up & keep it a lot shorter & to the point, as only 12 questions in the PIP form. That is 10 pages per question. Plus 7 as a overall summery. 

DWP outcome is basically the same as you have. With just the case workers notes on why they came to their decision, based on assessors report.

"Maybe think of using a computer & typing anything like this up & keep it a lot shorter & to the point, as only 12 questions in the PIP form. That is 10 pages per question. Plus 7 as a overall summery".

I meant the tribunal submission bundle not the PIP form. The DWPs was about 200 pages.

In the previous PIP claim i typed the answers and printed and stuck paper on, this time i wrote on it. Either way i only used the available space.

You said it was tribunal paperwork. Which I quoted. Even so that is a lot of paperwork. I was taking it that you were contesting each activity with the number of pages.

I drive more than i don't over the year 

Shot yourself in the foot there, I'm afraid. As by that statement you are also saying you are able to do many things the majority of the year. Again this is something that was mentioned many posts ago.

tifo

born_again said:

You said it was tribunal paperwork. Which I quoted. Even so that is a lot of paperwork. I was taking it that you were contesting each activity with the number of pages.

I drive more than i don't over the year 

Shot yourself in the foot there, I'm afraid. As by that statement you are also saying you are able to do many things the majority of the year. Again this is something that was mentioned many posts ago.

"You said it was tribunal paperwork. Which I quoted. Even so that is a lot of paperwork. I was taking it that you were contesting each activity with the number of pages".

With hospital letters (3 years worth), doctors fit notes (3 years worth), photos etc it all adds up. This was much the same as what the DWP did with their 200 page submission, though they included both assessment reports and the documents to go with them.

"I drive more than i don't over the year .... Shot yourself in the foot there, I'm afraid. As by that statement you are also saying you are able to do many things the majority of the year".

You're basically saying what the PIP assessor says. I didn't mean that i drive the majority of the year just that i drive more than i don't drive when i need to. Maybe i'm not explaining it right which is something i seem to do in my assessments.

This is how i see it. In a year i need to drive 6 months in total, the rest of the time i don't need to drive and the car is parked at home. Out of those 6 months i drive more than i don't, that doesn't mean to me that i drive the majority of the year because i drive, say, 4 months of the year in total. Looking at it this way that statement you quote from my post is wrong. I've said it wrong. It should say "i drive more than i don't on those times i need to drive which is not every day". I think i do this in the assessments too.

If someone needed to go out to work 5 days a week and shopping/leisure the other 2 days they'd need to drive their car every day but i don't.

Cressida100

@tifo your posts get more and more confusing. You really need someone to go through any forms before you send them. With regards to the OA, I really cannot see them awarding any points for that. I am about to have a total knee replacement, the pain can be excruciating at times but I still manage to get around with a struggle. I don't claim PIP for it as I don't think I meet the threshold and I've 10 years of x-rays showing the gradual deterioration . I don't think a bit of stiffness is going to get you points.

Additionally IMO your OCD doesn't sound too bad to be honest, having had personal experience of a close relative with diagnosed OCD and a fair amount of therapist input I have seen how debilitating that is and it's not something you would forget to put on your initial form. 

Spoonie_Turtle

How long ago since you last read the assessment guide?

It's assessed on how you are the majority of days.  If you are well enough that you could drive on the majority of days if you needed to, they go by that and extrapolate where relevant.

"2.1.2 When assessing a claimant, the HP should consider all the evidence of the case and the likely ability of the claimant over a year-long period, before selecting the most appropriate descriptor for the claimant relating to each of the assessment activities … "

"2.1.8 A scoring descriptor can apply to claimants in an activity where their impairment(s) affects their ability to complete an activity, at some stage of the day, on more than 50 per cent of days in the 12 month period. … "

tifo said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

This is in response to shopping when in reality nobody, not even able bodied people, walk around a supermarket non stop for 30 mins, everyone pauses and stops at many stages in their shop to browse or pick up items.

Just on this note - it is based on how long in total a person can walk for.  So pauses to then continue don't count as stopping, it's when they can no longer continue that is deemed to be stopping.  (I'm not with it enough to comment on any other part of it, but just so you know where they're coming from with that bit specifically.)

"You drive a car …". I said I drive when i can which is not always.

How often is 'not always'?  How often would you be able to

"Just on this note - it is based on how long in total a person can walk for.  So pauses to then continue don't count as stopping, it's when they can no longer continue that is deemed to be stopping".

I understand what you say but the decision says "you report being able to walk 30 minutes without stopping at a normal pace" and if this has a different meaning isn't that unfair? To me standing still (pausing) is stopping even if to catch my breath for a minute. If I do 10 of these, a minute each, and walk for 20 mins in total that's not really walking without stopping for 30 mins. I think ....

"How often is 'not always'?  How often would you be able to".

I drive more than i don't over the year but if i can't drive because of gout or arthritis then that doesn't mean i normally would be driving at that time, like most people i drive when i need to and sometimes need to but can't. Even able bodied people don't drive all the time and of course disabled people do drive and even the Motability scheme helps them to. So, in my opinion, being able to drive doesn't mean everything is OK all the time which is what the decision is kind of saying.

In addition to it being based on how you are most of the time, you did say you drive more often than not when you need to - that on the face of it satisfies the repeatedly criterion ("repeatedly – able to repeat the activity as often as is reasonably required").  


Mobility (moving around): from the guidance " … pauses do not necessarily mean the bout of moving has come to an end."

What matters is how it's assessed, not what you think the terms mean.  If you've walked a bit, paused, then continued walking, you've not actually stopped in this context.  Stopping is when you can no longer (or choose not to) walk any further.  

tifo said:

peteuk said:

tifo said:

Some extracts from the decision notes:

Mostly it's a repeat of the descriptors and then "I decided that you can manage these activities".

"You drive a car which requires a reasonable level of upper and lower limb strength, grip, range of movement and core stability as well as competent level of reading ability, memory, cognition and concentration". I said I drive when i can which is not always.

"When engaging with the assessor you coped well, was not anxious or withdrawn and did not need any prompting". I tried to answer the best i could and many times asked her to repeat the question.

"There is no evidence of any prescribed anxiolytic medication and you do not receive any specialist input for your mental health. Your functional history report shows no abandoned journeys and no panic attacks leaving the home. Your assessment showed you have no cognitive impairments and you possess adequate memory and concentration. During the assessment you coped well with adequate rapport. You communicated clearly and effectively without the need for prompting and with no signs of overwhelming psychological distress". Basically saying i'm on no anxiety medication and have no mental or memory issues. Nothing about my OCD and how i said it affects me in terms of going out (i don't most times) and especially how i am at home and in public spaces and the routines that i have to do with a lot of things.

"The functional history report shows you report being able to walk 30 minutes without stopping at a normal pace 4 or 5 times a week which is the majority of days". This is in response to shopping when in reality nobody, not even able bodied people, walk around a supermarket non stop for 30 mins, everyone pauses and stops at many stages in their shop to browse or pick up items. And many times it's not 30 minutes of non stop walking in a shop as it might be a quick 5 minutes in and out. It does not specifically state 'shopping' but i know it is because the assessor said i can walk around a supermarket for 30 minutes and it was also stated in my previous claim.

"You only take analgesia for your severe gout flare ups, you report flare ups 12 times a year and there is no evidence of any specialist input. I decided you can stand and then move more than 200 metres". Obviously i can't with severe or mild gout and i don't take medication only for a flare up, i'm on constant medication for it which helps but doesn't stop it.

There's no mention of how osteoarthritis is affecting me (stiff, painful left knees but more in the left) in terms of movement or bathing, which i mentioned i can't bend it to wash my lower legs or lift my feet to wash them. The assessor specifically asked this. The same applies to dressing/undressing. With gout movement and bathing has a different difficulty. My GP said use the same medication for osteoarthritis as for gout.

Lots of other things were asked and replied to and there's no mention here. I'll see in the assessment report when i receive it.

I have said this multiple times - if the assessor can write a stronger explanation for no points in an activity, over a scoring description they will.

“You drive a car which requires a reasonable level of upper and lower limb strength, grip, range of movement and core stability as well as competent level of reading ability, memory, cognition and concentration". I said I drive when i can which is not always.”

No where in that statement does it say always - what stops you from driving gout or arthritis

“You only take analgesia for your severe gout flare ups, you report flare ups 12 times a year and there is no evidence of any specialist input.”

So now put 1+1 together =. Your gout doesn't stop you from driving for the majority of the time. 

I will put this in simplest terms - little or no medication, no specialist care, no ongoing treatment or surgical plan will provide them with the ammunition to write a stronger no point descriptor. 

Your gout doesnt stop you from bathing THE MAJORITY OF THE TIME - as it severely flares up 12 times a year. You take analgesia at this point, there is no prescription of medication for gout and no specialist input.   I dont doubt your gout hurts all the time, I dont doubt you struggle getting in and out of the bath, but the weight of the evidence is this doesnt effect your life enough to score in a PIP assessment. 

Interestingly there is no mention of the length of time of these flare ups. Are they a day, a week, longer or shorter (on average) again this will indicate the majority of the time.  Eg it flares up lasts three weeks, I get a week or two off before it flares again suggests the majority of the time.  But in your own words it’s not an issue at present and hasn’t flared up as much over the last year. 

"No where in that statement does it say always - what stops you from driving gout or arthritis".

It doesn't say always but driving is an explanation for 0 points. Gout flare ups normally stop me from driving and i've been diagnosed with osteoarthritis since last 7 months and there's been no severe yet. It's painful and it's stiff and it stops me from doing things normally and isn't severe but compared to someone without it i'm affected.

…

"Interestingly there is no mention of the length of time of these flare ups".

The assessor asked and my reply was about 12 times a year and 3 days for severe, 4 days for moderate and it goes down to mild and goes away in 2 weeks. But i don't always get severe or moderate and many times it's mild which affects me for several days and this is how it's been over the year. So it wasn't 12 times a year severe but 12 episodes on average with a mixture of severe, moderate and mild. If that makes sense. 

Right, so when it is mild, which is most of the time, does it affect you enough in any of the assessed activities to reach the threshold for any scoring descriptors?

From what you've said, on average you experience severe to moderate for 12 out of 52 weeks in a year.  If it goes away within two weeks is that two weeks mild each time ( = 24 weeks out of 52), or the flare goes away within two weeks overall which would make one week mild each time ( = 12 weeks out of 52), plus any extra mild effects outside of flares.  So either way it's mild most of the time.

Driving is not an assessed activity so don't get distracted perseverating on that, it's just something they use as a proxy to inform other activities requiring certain similar abilities to the activities you say you struggle with.

Spoonie_Turtle

Cressida100 said:

Additionally IMO your OCD doesn't sound too bad to be honest, having had personal experience of a close relative with diagnosed OCD and a fair amount of therapist input I have seen how debilitating that is and it's not something you would forget to put on your initial form. 

This is very unhelpful and I don't know how you can make that assumption about a complete stranger on the internet based on very little detail. 

As a teenager I didn't know why or have the language to identify why it took me three hours to shower (roughly two hours in the bathroom to get in, than an hour to shower) nor why it took me nearly an hour to get into bed each night, as just two of MANY examples.  So if I'd been filling in a form concentrating about other known difficulties, I doubt I would have thought to mention it either.  It was only a throwaway comment to a friend about something tenuously related that sparked the conversation which led to realising that what I was experiencing wasn't 'normal'.  It WAS debilitating though, at one point my mind was so tangled I genuinely wondered whether I was possessed by a demon.  Yet on the outside and especially at school I looked like I was doing fine, just a bit quirky, nobody had a clue.

Oh, edit, because the context might not make it as clear as I thought, that was due to OCD.