PIP was 2nd claim with new conditions but from 15 April 2025 new 3rd claim as advised.

Muttleythefrog

tifo said:

sheramber said:

But the vision in your other eye is sufficient.

 My husband had no vision in one eye but was still able to drive and live his life as he wanted. 

Did your husband also have severe eye conditions in his other eye?

I repeat, i've never said my vision is not sufficient, i say my eye conditions in one eye affect my daily life.

Which activities does the vision affect... and which descriptors should apply? 'Affecting daily life' means nothing specific to PIP.

tifo

Here goes ....

I've received the assessors report for the assessment this month and whilst she has noted almost everything we discussed correctly, there's a few errors, she'd then discounted it all for the descriptors.

In every descriptor the report refers to the score from the previous assessment in March this year (the one which didn't include mental health) but I thought this was a new assessment? I got 2 points in 2021 for 'managing therapy or health condition' and that is still relevant today so I should get the same.

Worryingly, for me, she's used the lack of a blue badge as well as having a driving license as one of the reasons to decline a descriptor. Every descriptor includes either "has a driving license" or "no blue badge" and some say both, i'd say the use of the lack of a blue badge is unfair because I applied once several years ago and was immediately refused with no assessment. Most people don't have a blue badge unless they're on PIP and i'm clearly not on PIP. She asked at the assessment "do you have a blue badge".

She's also used lack of any help for my OCD as a reason even though I made it clear that the therapy for that will start after the therapy for social anxiety and depression, the counsellor even said that in today's session because OCD affects how I interact with people.

In the 'communicating' (7) and 'reading and understanding' (8) descriptors she says "Mental health not within scope of this activity" so i assume it hasn't been considered for these? Though i say my mental health does affect how i communicate with people (this is an area we concentrate on a lot in therapy)?

And in 'planning and following journeys' activity she says "Physical conditions are not within scope of this activity". I would have thought my physical conditions such as eye, gout and OA would be included because the physical pain of the journey would cause me distress?

The 2 points for 'engaging with other people' are for (b) needs prompting but I think this should be at least (c) needs social support, as i made it clear that i need social support from another person, normally my wife, or a friend when in social situations as the anxiety kicks in with all the affects that come with. This is also something we're looking at extensively in therapy.

For the 'washing and bathing' activity I think it should be 2 points for (b) needs to use an aid, as i made it clear i use a stool to sit on and wash my lower limbs for every shower.

So, 2 points for managing therapy or medication, 2 points for using an aid when bathing and 4 points for social anxiety when engaging with other people gives me 8 points in daily living. I would argue that engaging with other people could be (d) overwhelming psychological distress to the claimant as i do have severe social anxiety and combined with OCD it stops me from going out etc in private and public places/events.

In mobility activities, i should receive 4 points for (b) needs prompting with a journey and 8 points for (c) cannot walk more than 50 metres or at least 4 points for (b) cannot walk more than 200 metres. That's 8 points or more for mobility.

The points are for how I am now at the time of the assessment this month not how i was in March this year (no mental health in PIP form) or in May 2021 (first application). I was actually worse in this one for mobility and would've said (d).

tifo

Muttleythefrog said:

Which activities does the vision affect... and which descriptors should apply? 'Affecting daily life' means nothing specific to PIP.

Unless i'm not understanding what people are saying here, i don't say that my vision affects any activity?

With the affected eye, it's the physical pains and severe inflammation which affects the eye. I've never said that this should be used for vision reasons as i can't see from it anyway.

peteuk

tifo said:

In every descriptor the report refers to the score from the previous one in March this year (the one which didn't include mental health) but I thought this was a new assessment? In that case i got 2 points in 2021 for 'managing therapy or health condition' and that is still relevant today so I should get the same?

When you’ve had a previous assessment the report has to note the previous score/discriptor, it’s used as a benchmark mark. It’s not just your report.  The assessment is a new assessment but it has to refer to your previous report.

tifo said:

Worryingly, for me, she's used the lack of a blue badge as well as having a driving license as one of the reasons to decline a descriptor. Every descriptor includes either "has a driving license" or "no blue badge" and some say both, i'd say the use of the lack of a blue badge is unfair because I applied once several years ago and was immediately refused with no assessment. Most people don't have a blue badge unless they're on PIP and i'm clearly not on PIP. She asked at the assessment "do you have a blue badge".

The use of driving and having a licence has been widely discussed.  Having a full licence shows the mental and cognitive capacity to learn, driving shows power, range of movement in ankles, knees, hips and upper limbs.  You dont need PIP to have a blue badge, equally PIP doesnt mean you automatically get a blue badge.

tifo said:

She's also used lack of any help for my OCD as a reason even though I made it clear that the therapy for that will start after the therapy for social anxiety and depression, the counsellor even said that in today's session because OCD affects how I interact with people.

Lack of specialist input for any condition shows that there is little evidence that the condition is that severe, it it was then you’d be referred from primary health to a specialist in secondary care.  Your OCD is newly diagnosed, although you’ve had the symptoms for a long time.  You were warned that your application was too quick, and that you needed to build up the evidence

tifo said:

In the 'communicating' (7) and 'reading and understanding' (8) descriptors she says "Mental health not within scope of this activity" so i assume it hasn't been considered for these? Though i say my mental health does affect how i communicate with people (this is an area we concentrate on a lot in therapy)?

 Activities are broken down into what conditions affect them, these are physical, mental and cognitive conditions.  There is no assumption to be made, in activity 7 mental health doesn’t affect your communication, it does affect activity 8 engaging with others.  The activities are designed to balance each other.

tifo said:

And in 'planning and following journeys' activity she says "Physical conditions are not within scope of this activity". I would have thought my physical conditions such as eye, gout and OA would be included because the physical pain of the journey would cause me distress?

The two mobility activities are again designed to balance each other, these ability to stand and walk is purely physical, the planning and following journeys is for mental and cognitive conditions.  Regardless of if your gout/ eye sight stops you from taking a journey you still have the mental and cognitive capacity to follow a journey.  Its not a phyiscal activity.

I would say this highlights your lack of understanding of the PIP assessment and requirements to achieve a successful claim.  You’ve been advised to research and understand the activities and descriptors.  Youve obsessed on gaining a successful PIP claim, and it appears that in doing so you’ve missed the fundermental aspects of the process.:

tifo said

In mobility activities, i should receive 4 points for (b) needs prompting with a journey and 8 points for (c) cannot walk more than 50 metres or at least 4 points for (b) cannot walk more than 200 metres. That's 8 points or more for mobility.

Your opinion doesn’t count, sorry to be blunt!  You need to be able to back up the reason why you score 8 points.  Does your mental health stop you from leaving the house?  If it does then you’ll need the specialist input to support this.  With no specialist input for mental health and no medication, you cannot evidence needs prompting.

This comes back to what evidence supports the descriptor, and if it’s easier for the assessor to evidence a nil score descriptor then they will.  If there is no evidence to support your claim then they cannot give you a scoring descriptor.

tifo

@peteuk "You dont need PIP to have a blue badge, equally PIP doesnt mean you automatically get a blue badge".

I know this but it's a new one to me, every report uses a different excuse to give no points. Last time it was the driving license, this time it's that and no blue badge.

I think this blue badge reason is unfair because a blue badge is very hard to get and most councils don't assess the claimant, and once declined there's no right of appeal. It's easier with a PIP award and from what i've seen, a PIP award in mobility will guarantee a blue badge. So knowing full well i don't have a PIP award she's saying i'm able to carry out activities because i don't have a blue badge (this is across most descriptors). 

tifo

peteuk said:

Your opinion doesn’t count, sorry to be blunt!  You need to be able to back up the reason why you score 8 points.  Does your mental health stop you from leaving the house?  If it does then you’ll need the specialist input to support this.  With no specialist input for mental health and no medication, you cannot evidence needs prompting.

It's ok, be as blunt as you like!

"Does your mental health stop you from leaving the house?  If it does then you’ll need the specialist input to support this".

Yes it does and this is one of the aspects of the anxiety and OCD issues we're working on in the therapy. I guess NHS CBT talking therapy isn't 'specialist' enough for PIP but that's where i am, the counsellor has discussed psychiatrist treatment later in the process if and when she considers therapy isn't making a difference. I'm only following what those in the treatment process send me to.

So for activity 9 'engaging with other people' i say (c) 4 points because i need social support in helping me go out and/or engage with people in a group, small i can manage and large groups (like weddings or other events with more than 10 people i avoid). I generally don't leave the house unless it's for appointments or small shopping trips. Prompting does not give me social support, someone being with me does. Someone saying "i think you should go to that event" doesn't make me go, but i say "i'll go for a short while if you come with me".

The assessor stated that my wife helping me doesn't constitute social support but in the case of MMcK v Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (2016) the court looked at the meaning of 'prompting' and 'social support' and both them and the DWP agree that social support can be from friends and family who, because they know the person, can be seen as 'experienced' under the activity. The DWP say that once the help is more than 'prompting' it can be seen as 'social support'. So in that context I receive social support from my wife and my friends which meets the activity requirement.

Without the social support it would be (d) overwhelming psychological distress to the claimant, because that's what happens to me when i've to engage with others socially.

None of my conditions are notifiable to the DVLA for the purposes of having a driving license unless a medical professional deems it so and until now neither my GP or hospital consultant think so. So having a driving license shouldn't be used against me, but i understand it's a standard thing with DWP/PIP

 

born_again

tifo said:

Muttleythefrog said:

Which activities does the vision affect... and which descriptors should apply? 'Affecting daily life' means nothing specific to PIP.

Unless i'm not understanding what people are saying here, i don't say that my vision affects any activity?

With the affected eye, it's the physical pains and severe inflammation which affects the eye. I've never said that this should be used for vision reasons as i can't see from it anyway.

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/81599025/#Comment_81599025

The eye conditions in the other eye are present 100% of the time. And they give problems the majority of the time. I've always said that, and so does the hospital, but the assessors don't believe us.

Which read's as you are putting this down as a reason in the daily living descriptors.

tifo

born_again said:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/81599025/#Comment_81599025

The eye conditions in the other eye are present 100% of the time. And they give problems the majority of the time. I've always said that, and so does the hospital, but the assessors don't believe us.

Which read's as you are putting this down as a reason in the daily living descriptors.

Yes, they are present all the time, that doesn't mean i can't see, the problems are in my blind eye. Those problems affect my daily living which is why they're in my claim.

I don't understand what you're saying?

Muttleythefrog

tifo said:

Muttleythefrog said:

Which activities does the vision affect... and which descriptors should apply? 'Affecting daily life' means nothing specific to PIP.

Unless i'm not understanding what people are saying here, i don't say that my vision affects any activity?

With the affected eye, it's the physical pains and severe inflammation which affects the eye. I've never said that this should be used for vision reasons as i can't see from it anyway.

Well you keep referring to vision affecting daily living...so I'm thinking of those activities.. trying here to get a handle on what that means in your claim.. is it for example affecting your ability to get dressed to an acceptable standard.. or does it mean you take a long time to get showered for example. Trying to make sense of the rest.... yes quickly... they're using reference to your previous assessment.. another reason to put distance between the claims... and they do seem to have considered all the health problems you bring to the table but they seem to be struggling with apparent inconsistencies (Re driving) and the lack of MH treatment so far as was warned about. Claim was too soon but I completely agree with what Pete has bolded in his post above... I would echo same... there's strong indication you are not fundamentally understanding the process or the requirements to evidence descriptors in appropriate activities... there's evidence you're wanting them to consider irrelevant things in activities... Communication is a good example regarding mental health.

I suspect there is failure to focus on facts and evidence relevant to activities leaving them with basic facts of your circumstances sufficient to largely select zero descriptors... and now there is a growing trail of that in your claims it could give persistent issues. I think the driving licence issue (and now blue badge) is possibly hijacking your anxieties and assessments... I worry you're trying to justify having a licence and infrequent driving.. which of course takes you nowhere closer to explaining what disablements you have relevant to activities. I would walk away... focus on treatments and your health.. understand it better and try to overcome some problems... then in a year or so revisit PIP issue if up to it and honestly reflect on if there is a case to be made particularly with regard MH circumstances and evidence at that time.

"I don't know how to explain it but it's 'my' time when i'm away from everyone else (people) and have my own space" - this sounds like preference not disablement. It may also sound so when you describe inability to use public transport... " i feel safer in my own vehicle" - probably so would anybody. Possibly when it comes to engaging with others it may come across also as preference in needing accompaniment implying some prompting or the like may be required and the lack of MH specialist input documenting otherwise perhaps is a problem. Your claim that descriptor d may apply runs contradictory to how you describe your social interaction difficulties... it's just not believable that you suffer such disablement or if you do then you have failed comprehensively to describe the true nature of social interaction problems and help you need.

marcia_

tifo said:

peteuk said:

Your opinion doesn’t count, sorry to be blunt!  You need to be able to back up the reason why you score 8 points.  Does your mental health stop you from leaving the house?  If it does then you’ll need the specialist input to support this.  With no specialist input for mental health and no medication, you cannot evidence needs prompting.

It's ok, be as blunt as you like!

"Does your mental health stop you from leaving the house?  If it does then you’ll need the specialist input to support this".

Yes it does and this is one of the aspects of the anxiety and OCD issues we're working on in the therapy. I guess NHS CBT talking therapy isn't 'specialist' enough for PIP but that's where i am, the counsellor has discussed psychiatrist treatment later in the process if and when she considers therapy isn't making a difference. I'm only following what those in the treatment process send me to.

So for activity 9 'engaging with other people' i say (c) 4 points because i need social support in helping me go out and/or engage with people in a group, small i can manage and large groups (like weddings or other events with more than 10 people i avoid). I generally don't leave the house unless it's for appointments or small shopping trips. Prompting does not give me social support, someone being with me does. Someone saying "i think you should go to that event" doesn't make me go, but i say "i'll go for a short while if you come with me".

The assessor stated that my wife helping me doesn't constitute social support but in the case of MMcK v Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (2016) the court looked at the meaning of 'prompting' and 'social support' and both them and the DWP agree that social support can be from friends and family who, because they know the person, can be seen as 'experienced' under the activity. The DWP say that once the help is more than 'prompting' it can be seen as 'social support'. So in that context I receive social support from my wife and my friends which meets the activity requirement.

Without the social support it would be (d) overwhelming psychological distress to the claimant, because that's what happens to me when i've to engage with others socially.

None of my conditions are notifiable to the DVLA for the purposes of having a driving license unless a medical professional deems it so and until now neither my GP or hospital consultant think so. So having a driving license shouldn't be used against me, but i understand it's a standard thing with DWP/PIP

 

 You would not get 4 points because you can't attend a wedding without support. 4 points would indicate you needing significant support with meeting all people one on one and groups