PIP was 2nd claim with new conditions but from 15 April 2025 new 3rd claim as advised.

peteuk

tifo said:

Some extracts from the decision notes:

Mostly it's a repeat of the descriptors and then "I decided that you can manage these activities".

"You drive a car which requires a reasonable level of upper and lower limb strength, grip, range of movement and core stability as well as competent level of reading ability, memory, cognition and concentration". I said I drive when i can which is not always.

"When engaging with the assessor you coped well, was not anxious or withdrawn and did not need any prompting". I tried to answer the best i could and many times asked her to repeat the question.

"There is no evidence of any prescribed anxiolytic medication and you do not receive any specialist input for your mental health. Your functional history report shows no abandoned journeys and no panic attacks leaving the home. Your assessment showed you have no cognitive impairments and you possess adequate memory and concentration. During the assessment you coped well with adequate rapport. You communicated clearly and effectively without the need for prompting and with no signs of overwhelming psychological distress". Basically saying i'm on no anxiety medication and have no mental or memory issues. Nothing about my OCD and how i said it affects me in terms of going out (i don't most times) and especially how i am at home and in public spaces and the routines that i have to do with a lot of things.

"The functional history report shows you report being able to walk 30 minutes without stopping at a normal pace 4 or 5 times a week which is the majority of days". This is in response to shopping when in reality nobody, not even able bodied people, walk around a supermarket non stop for 30 mins, everyone pauses and stops at many stages in their shop to browse or pick up items. And many times it's not 30 minutes of non stop walking in a shop as it might be a quick 5 minutes in and out. It does not specifically state 'shopping' but i know it is because the assessor said i can walk around a supermarket for 30 minutes and it was also stated in my previous claim.

"You only take analgesia for your severe gout flare ups, you report flare ups 12 times a year and there is no evidence of any specialist input. I decided you can stand and then move more than 200 metres". Obviously i can't with severe or mild gout and i don't take medication only for a flare up, i'm on constant medication for it which helps but doesn't stop it.

There's no mention of how osteoarthritis is affecting me (stiff, painful left knees but more in the left) in terms of movement or bathing, which i mentioned i can't bend it to wash my lower legs or lift my feet to wash them. The assessor specifically asked this. The same applies to dressing/undressing. With gout movement and bathing has a different difficulty. My GP said use the same medication for osteoarthritis as for gout.

Lots of other things were asked and replied to and there's no mention here. I'll see in the assessment report when i receive it.

I have said this multiple times - if the assessor can write a stronger explanation for no points in an activity, over a scoring description they will.

“You drive a car which requires a reasonable level of upper and lower limb strength, grip, range of movement and core stability as well as competent level of reading ability, memory, cognition and concentration". I said I drive when i can which is not always.”

No where in that statement does it say always - what stops you from driving gout or arthritis

“You only take analgesia for your severe gout flare ups, you report flare ups 12 times a year and there is no evidence of any specialist input.”

So now put 1+1 together =. Your gout doesn't stop you from driving for the majority of the time. 

I will put this in simplest terms - little or no medication, no specialist care, no ongoing treatment or surgical plan will provide them with the ammunition to write a stronger no point descriptor. 

Your gout doesnt stop you from bathing THE MAJORITY OF THE TIME - as it severely flares up 12 times a year. You take analgesia at this point, there is no prescription of medication for gout and no specialist input.   I dont doubt your gout hurts all the time, I dont doubt you struggle getting in and out of the bath, but the weight of the evidence is this doesnt effect your life enough to score in a PIP assessment. 

Interestingly there is no mention of the length of time of these flare ups. Are they a day, a week, longer or shorter (on average) again this will indicate the majority of the time.  Eg it flares up lasts three weeks, I get a week or two off before it flares again suggests the majority of the time.  But in your own words it’s not an issue at present and hasn’t flared up as much over the last year. 

Spoonie_Turtle

In light of peteuk's post above, I think it's worth repeating (because I've said this before on this forum, perhaps even in a thread about your first claim) that not scoring enough for PIP doesn't mean someone has no difficulties - nor even that they're not disabled. 

PIP is a high threshold but it's an arbitrary one based on arbitrary activities which are limited in scope - it doesn't even consider whether you can dry yourself after washing, look after your own grooming, keep your living space clean and safe, acquire your own food and items necessary for survival, etc. 

There are so many people who could quite rightly consider themselves to be disabled who just don't quite score enough for PIP because they can just about do the narrowly-defined activities in isolation with difficulty that doesn't reach the PIP threshold, and really struggle with the rest of real life that doesn't come under the scope of PIP.

(And interestingly in related legislation, e.g. for Carers Allowance, qualifying for PIP means a person is 'severely disabled'.)

I'm not … this isn't a comment on your case, OP, nor should anything be read into it about pursuing this claim or making a fresh one.  Take it at face value because that's how I meant it.  

The reason I'm saying the above is honestly just sparked from the above post reminding us that real difficulties can be present without reaching the PIP threshold.  Societally so much weight is put on qualifying for benefits or a Blue Badge as the only accepted proof of disability, and it can feel incredibly invalidating to be genuinely struggling in life without anything like that to 'officially' recognise and validate how hard things are.  And then the public in general buy into the belief that you're only disabled and struggling if you qualify for something official, which is not the case at all and makes life so difficult for people who do need accommodations or access arrangements but don't quite meet the narrow, arbitrary official thresholds.

Muttleythefrog

tifo said:

Some extracts from the decision notes:

...

Always interesting to see what the DM said (likely reflective of what the assessor report will say). I agree with what other posters have said in response.

Just quickly before I forget.. Spoonie says things which are worth repeating including "PIP is a high threshold but it's an arbitrary one based on arbitrary activities which are limited in scope ". Just as casual comment... I get Enhanced DL and standard mobility due to disablement caused by mental illness I've suffered for a long time. At the back end of October I was found to have a rectal tumour and later determined advanced metastatic rectal cancer which has led me into treatment including chemotherapy. If I look through the PIP descriptors and activities... my current cancer related symptoms (not the ones pre colostomy surgery which were temporary but life changing) would lead in theory to zero points on all activities.. this is an illness that could within months (or sooner given scan in 2 days) be considered terminal. So I echo what Spoonie says... PIP sets high bars of disablement for activities limited in scope and a failure to qualify for it does not mean there is lacking disablement or indeed illness. There's a statistical much higher than 50% chance I have cancer that will ultimately kill me yet I wouldn't even score points on needing help with medication because although I really struggle to deal with the barrage of chemo and associated drugs in a cycle those cycles will not last more than 3 months at a time...and because of the cumulative toxicity it isn't a treatment you can be on indefinitely... instead I score because I need reminding to take an antacid tablet each day which is not related to cancer.

Pete also raises some important points and I quote "if the assessor can write a stronger explanation for no points in an activity, over a scoring description they will" - I think this is especially relevant to your situation and outcomes.. because while you're struggling to impose the idea you have difficulties that are enduring and persistent you also seem to give information that allows the assessor to conclude problems are limited or minor. Saying things like "I drive when i can" is open to interpretation... without solid qualification of what that means to think otherwise I'd interpret that as you drive without notable restriction. Think of assessors as like water..path of least resistance.. they'll take the easiest path to the zero point scoring descriptor unless you divert them and as Pete points out.. the lack of medical input and enduring apparent nature of symptoms described could help them easily to the zero descriptors unless there is good explanation as to why the disablement is applicable to point scoring descriptor. They are as you recognise taking facts and extrapolating them to the activities and your abilities... this may not always be particularly suitable, technical or professional but it's how they do it. You raise the supermarket shop as example.. once again you find yourself here trying to haggle over minor technicalities... the reality is if you seem to have no problem going on a supermarket shop then without qualification to the contrary for majority of time they will consider it fact that can be used.

You're putting a vast effort over years into getting PIP.... nobody should have to do that... sometimes it is necessary... but do make sure you are pursuing a realistic chance of success either in challenging decision or with new claim in due course.

peteuk

Spoonie_Turtle said:

The reason I'm saying the above is honestly just sparked from the above post reminding us that real difficulties can be present without reaching the PIP threshold.  Societally so much weight is put on qualifying for benefits or a Blue Badge as the only accepted proof of disability, and it can feel incredibly invalidating to be genuinely struggling in life without anything like that to 'officially' recognise and validate how hard things are.  And then the public in general buy into the belief that you're only disabled and struggling if you qualify for something official, which is not the case at all and makes life so difficult for people who do need accommodations or access arrangements but don't quite meet the narrow, arbitrary official thresholds.

I think we are saying the same thing just from different angles. 

peteuk said: 

Your gout doesnt stop you from bathing THE MAJORITY OF THE TIME - as it severely flares up 12 times a year. You take analgesia at this point, there is no prescription of medication for gout and no specialist input.   I dont doubt your gout hurts all the time, I dont doubt you struggle getting in and out of the bath, but the weight of the evidence is this doesnt effect your life enough to score in a PIP assessment. 

I had spinal surgery in 2003, I have constant back pain, i cant stand to do the dishes without my back spasming painfully.   Somedays I wake up and cant walk upright for about 10 minutes.  The pain eases and I stand better.   I have other long term conditions  that classify me (in law) as disabled.  Im protected under the Equality Act 2010.  

But Ive never claimed/applied for PIP, does that make me fully abled? No....

I fully understand there are people (few and fair between) on PIP that shouldnt be, equally a greater amount of perople who arent on PIP that should and I suspect this wil increase with the "new"  changes.  

What I am trying (potentially badly) to explain is what Spoonie said said...the threashold for PIP is high.  In my opinion potentially going to get higher.  Its not a you're disabled/not disabled test.  Its an assessment on how your conditions affect your daily life. 

There is enough in the OPs post which takes samples of there report that contradicts other comments within the same post.   

I drive so can get in and out of a car, "which requires a reasonable level of upper and lower limb strength, grip, range of movement and core stability"  but "osteoarthritis is affecting me (stiff, painful left knees but more in the left) in terms of movement or bathing, which i mentioned i can't bend it to wash my lower legs or lift my feet to wash them" 

What i am trying to say to the OP and others is that what you say carries through the whole assessment.  So by simply being able to prove a claimant has Range of Movement, strength and function in a limb or joint, will potentially contradict other statements made within the assessment.   The simple fact that if you dont drive once a week to the shop to get food or you dont eat, is somewhat ignored (and hence why I left PIP assessing)  

I will say, and I know Ive annoyed people on here before (not my aim) I had insight into the PIP assessment, training and practical application. I was taught how to use a driving licence and ability to and action of driving to dismiss various activites.  I dont always comment my own beliefe but try and apply that insight, training and application to situations.   I know there are good and bad assessors, I know that candiates can believe that the assessment is a lie or ignored what was said/evidenced in the assessment process.   I often feel that there is a gap between the potential of PIP, the claimants undertanding of the process, application and the reality of how it is applied to various degrees. 

There is no black and white in PIP, just multiple levels of grey.  Theres no I have this, it causes this so therefore I cant do this - 3 pts.   Its more I have this, I claim I cant do this, I dont have much evidence to back this up - left to the assessors clinical judgement and overal presentation. 

Spoonie_Turtle

peteuk said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

The reason I'm saying the above is honestly just sparked from the above post reminding us that real difficulties can be present without reaching the PIP threshold.  Societally so much weight is put on qualifying for benefits or a Blue Badge as the only accepted proof of disability, and it can feel incredibly invalidating to be genuinely struggling in life without anything like that to 'officially' recognise and validate how hard things are.  And then the public in general buy into the belief that you're only disabled and struggling if you qualify for something official, which is not the case at all and makes life so difficult for people who do need accommodations or access arrangements but don't quite meet the narrow, arbitrary official thresholds.

I think we are saying the same thing just from different angles. 

Oh absolutely I was not disagreeing in any way, I understand what you were saying (or at least I think there's been no misunderstanding!) and it links to the wider issue that I thought was worth explicitly stating in the thread. 
('Sparked by your previous post' I meant your post set me thinking about it, along the same line and extending out.  If that makes any sense, my previous post used up capacity for putting abstract concepts into words!)

peteuk said:  

What I am trying (potentially badly) to explain is what Spoonie said said...the threashold for PIP is high.  In my opinion potentially going to get higher.  Its not a you're disabled/not disabled test.  Its an assessment on how your conditions affect your daily life. 

Exactly.


[Btw I for one appreciate your insight into why assessments (and subsequent decisions) can turn out the way they do.  Along with other advice and experiences shared on this forum it's certainly helped me understand that it's not personal, even though it feels acutely so.  It's just important that people also understand that the assessment and the reasoning used therein and what the law says about eligibility are not the same thing.]

M25

tifo said:

Some extracts from the decision notes

Although I've not had sight of the papers I'd say the claim (form filling excercise) has been a disaster. 

Those notes seem well written and thought out although I note you believe not as fulsome or as accurate as you'd like. If they'd mentioned some of the things you talk about do you believe you could succeed in a MR or tribunal?

I can't answer that as I can only comment on the dribs and drabs I've gathered from the thread.

As for Shelter they do their very best but if you take pages and pages of irrelevant and extraneous information and voice your opinions about the past to them it'll damage your claim because they will -essentially- do as you request: form fill. Just like a lawyer takes instructions from a client that they may not agree with. That's their job.

It's up to you to get the claim paperwork correct. You have to build a good claim and I see none of that it this entire thread.

Your OCD may be third time lucky, yes that's what I'm saying.

Focus is your friend. You have to narrow your symptons so the person trying to estabilsh if you are eligible can clearly see you meet the descriptors.

I remember re-doing a Blue Bage (might have been Orange Badge I'm old ) application that a CPN had done for a client (did not have high mobility DLA). With all the information the CPN had and you'd think know-how and none of it was used correctly and the application failed. Essentially, they'd ignored what the local council said they expected to hear from the application. I done it again and it was accepted. I simply read the council's leaflet about eligibility and matched the client's real life experiences.

The PIP leaflet is a how-to-guide. 

As I've said several times my advice is only pertinent to this thread and is not general advice.

ayupmeduck

tifo said:

Received my PIP letter, got 0 points on everything whereas previously i got 2 points for 'managing therapy' (i can't put my eye drops in as blind eye).

I'm still waiting for the assessment report but the case manager says things (you can, you said) which i can't and didn't. Apparently driving a car means everything is fine (my answer was 'only when i can' and 'i don't always drive'). And because i answered all the questions i have no mental or cognitive issues.

Time for MR ..... hope the assessment report comes soon.

driving a car can drop your points, and yes answering the questions without support support or issues would have you as no cognitive impairment

sammyjammy

You keep saying the work coach advised you to claim PIP, they did not do this, they just suggested it was worth looking at just like I might if we got into conversation in the street, its not advisory its just a suggestion.  It doesn't mean they have any expert knowledge or that they think you should get PIP.

tifo

born_again said:

Something that jumped out at me.

this went against me in my previous PIP claim as the tribunal panel commented that i was able to write the submission bundle myself, all 127 pages of it,

Maybe think of using a computer & typing anything like this up & keep it a lot shorter & to the point, as only 12 questions in the PIP form. That is 10 pages per question. Plus 7 as a overall summery. 

DWP outcome is basically the same as you have. With just the case workers notes on why they came to their decision, based on assessors report.

"Maybe think of using a computer & typing anything like this up & keep it a lot shorter & to the point, as only 12 questions in the PIP form. That is 10 pages per question. Plus 7 as a overall summery".

I meant the tribunal submission bundle not the PIP form. The DWPs was about 200 pages.

In the previous PIP claim i typed the answers and printed and stuck paper on, this time i wrote on it. Either way i only used the available space.

tifo

Spoonie_Turtle said:

This is in response to shopping when in reality nobody, not even able bodied people, walk around a supermarket non stop for 30 mins, everyone pauses and stops at many stages in their shop to browse or pick up items.

Just on this note - it is based on how long in total a person can walk for.  So pauses to then continue don't count as stopping, it's when they can no longer continue that is deemed to be stopping.  (I'm not with it enough to comment on any other part of it, but just so you know where they're coming from with that bit specifically.)

"You drive a car …". I said I drive when i can which is not always.

How often is 'not always'?  How often would you be able to

"Just on this note - it is based on how long in total a person can walk for.  So pauses to then continue don't count as stopping, it's when they can no longer continue that is deemed to be stopping".

I understand what you say but the decision says "you report being able to walk 30 minutes without stopping at a normal pace" and if this has a different meaning isn't that unfair? To me standing still (pausing) is stopping even if to catch my breath for a minute. If I do 10 of these, a minute each, and walk for 20 mins in total that's not really walking without stopping for 30 mins. I think ....

"How often is 'not always'?  How often would you be able to".

I drive more than i don't over the year but if i can't drive because of gout or arthritis then that doesn't mean i normally would be driving at that time, like most people i drive when i need to and sometimes need to but can't. Even able bodied people don't drive all the time and of course disabled people do drive and even the Motability scheme helps them to. So, in my opinion, being able to drive doesn't mean everything is OK all the time which is what the decision is kind of saying.