PIP was 2nd claim with new conditions but from 15 April 2025 new 3rd claim as advised.

tifo

Muttleythefrog said:

tifo said: From the assessment and looking at criteria i didn't realise OCD was such a big thing. I'll make a GP appointment and take it from there, even though i didn't put it in my form we did discuss it in detail at the assessment and i'll have medical evidence for the MR or tribunal.

For those that may say i'm clutching at straws, this is not true. I've genuinely had OCD about dirt and germs for many years (and was worse in covid times) but didn't think it was bad enough to see a GP about, but going through the assessment questions i now realise that it is. Washing hands constantly, if i touch anything remotely dusty i have to go wash my hands with handwash immediately, not sitting on public seats or not using public transport for the same reason, not sitting on grass at a picnic, not wanting to touch public door handles (i use my little finger in the corner of the handle where i think most people don't touch it) etc all point to a real issue.

I must admit I'm slightly surprised given your extensive exploration of disablements in relation to PIP and for the WCA that you hadn't realised how debilitating it was.

From an assessment point of view they may be suspicious (potentially exacerbated by your description of problems which fit nicely with a stereotypical view of OCD) or they may take a line that people with illnesses or disablements become so familiar with dealing with them that they overlook just how different their behaviour is to regular people and fail to appreciate their disablement consequently.

Hopefully the GP will be useful in referral to those who can help.

I understand what you mean about my previous PIP and WCA claims and OCD but it's because it's not a medical condition i've been asked about or on my GP record that i didn't mention it previously. I honestly can't remember if i was asked any question in the previous assessment in 2021 that would lead to me thinking about OCD. In my previous research i didn't click on any info about OCD as didn't think about the affects on me.

Even this time, i didn't mention OCD until the assessor asked about public transport and public spaces and sitting on public seats (in relation to whether i would use one if i was walking and tired) to which i replied that i don't as i have OCD about germs and stuff.

I hope they take the view highlighted above which is true in my case as i've not taken into account how different it is to other people.

Muttleythefrog

tifo said:

Muttleythefrog said:

tifo said: From the assessment and looking at criteria i didn't realise OCD was such a big thing. I'll make a GP appointment and take it from there, even though i didn't put it in my form we did discuss it in detail at the assessment and i'll have medical evidence for the MR or tribunal.

For those that may say i'm clutching at straws, this is not true. I've genuinely had OCD about dirt and germs for many years (and was worse in covid times) but didn't think it was bad enough to see a GP about, but going through the assessment questions i now realise that it is. Washing hands constantly, if i touch anything remotely dusty i have to go wash my hands with handwash immediately, not sitting on public seats or not using public transport for the same reason, not sitting on grass at a picnic, not wanting to touch public door handles (i use my little finger in the corner of the handle where i think most people don't touch it) etc all point to a real issue.

I must admit I'm slightly surprised given your extensive exploration of disablements in relation to PIP and for the WCA that you hadn't realised how debilitating it was.

From an assessment point of view they may be suspicious (potentially exacerbated by your description of problems which fit nicely with a stereotypical view of OCD) or they may take a line that people with illnesses or disablements become so familiar with dealing with them that they overlook just how different their behaviour is to regular people and fail to appreciate their disablement consequently.

Hopefully the GP will be useful in referral to those who can help.

I understand what you mean about my previous PIP and WCA claims and OCD but it's because it's not a medical condition i've been asked about or on my GP record that i didn't mention it previously. I honestly can't remember if i was asked any question in the previous assessment in 2021 that would lead to me thinking about OCD. In my previous research i didn't click on any info about OCD as didn't think about the affects on me.

Even this time, i didn't mention OCD until the assessor asked about public transport and public spaces and sitting on public seats (in relation to whether i would use one if i was walking and tired) to which i replied that i don't as i have OCD about germs and stuff.

I hope they take the view highlighted above which is true in my case as i've not taken into account how different it is to other people.

Definitely going to be interesting to see what the assessor's report says... so definitely get hold of it ASAP. It really could go in any direction.... your previous problems seem to arise because you have not been particularly believed in assessment or tribunal and have ended up with what you consider completely defective facts and judgements. You are definitely at risk of the same happening again given what you've said about how the assessment played out... but you just don't know and importantly the assessment was a good length to gather facts.. implies they're interested in getting things correct and that's why they engaged a new reported set of disablements and condition where another assessor may have simply passed over it as not in any evidence including your own submitted and so either something to newly explore with your healthcare professionals rather than them or suspicious in their arising during this assessment. Hopefully you'll have eyes on the report next week or sooner.

tifo

@Muttleythefrog you give good advice from experience .....

I now regret not bringing up my OCD before, especially with my GP and the previous PIP and WC assessments. I've had these issues for many years before covid.

There's a lot more in how i do things, not only washing hands or not sitting on public seats or touching handles etc. I don't know how much to post on a public forum like this. All to do with how i think things are clean.

peteuk

tifo said:

@Muttleythefrog you give good advice from experience .....

I now regret not bringing up my OCD before, especially with my GP and the previous PIP and WC assessments. I've had these issues for many years before covid.

There's a lot more in how i do things, not only washing hands or not sitting on public seats or touching handles etc. I don't know how much to post on a public forum like this. All to do with how i think things are clean.

The issue with OCD and PIP is the effect it has on your daily life.  

For instance and not to belittle anyone with OCD but as to use a real life example - if a claimant needs to check the light switch 6 times before they close a door then the effect on daily activity is minimal. It may take 5 minutes to leave a room. 

If a claimant is constantly washing their hands because of the fear of germs and its lead to skin issues then that is more of an issue and can lead to an effect on multiple activities. 

In your case (and you dont need to answer this its more for you to think about) but how does your OCD manifest?  Youve mentioned you avoid public transport due to germs but this has no real affect on your PIP assessment.  It doesn't physically stop you from moving (although I recognise your physical conditions do) equally you can still plan a journey but just plan it without public transport. 

Spoonie_Turtle

peteuk said:

tifo said:

@Muttleythefrog you give good advice from experience .....

I now regret not bringing up my OCD before, especially with my GP and the previous PIP and WC assessments. I've had these issues for many years before covid.

There's a lot more in how i do things, not only washing hands or not sitting on public seats or touching handles etc. I don't know how much to post on a public forum like this. All to do with how i think things are clean.

The issue with OCD and PIP is the effect it has on your daily life.  

For instance and not to belittle anyone with OCD but as to use a real life example - if a claimant needs to check the light switch 6 times before they close a door then the effect on daily activity is minimal. It may take 5 minutes to leave a room. 

To be diagnosed with OCD (which I acknowledge OP hasn't been, yet, but in your example you cite someone 'with OCD') the compulsions have to be "time-consuming (e.g., take more than 1 hour per day) or cause clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning."  - criterion B of the diagnostic criteria.

Per OCDUK: "Criterion B emphasizes that obsessions and compulsions must be time-consuming (e.g., more than 1 hour per day) or cause clinically significant distress or impairment to warrant a diagnosis of OCD. This criterion helps to distinguish the disorder from the occasional intrusive thoughts or repetitive behaviors that are common in the general population (e.g., double-checking that a door is locked). The frequency and severity of obsessions and compulsions vary across individuals with OCD (e.g., some have mild to moderate symptoms, spending 1—3 hours per day obsessing or doing compulsions, whereas others have nearly constant intrusive thoughts or compulsions that can be incapacitating)."



Your isolated example of having to check a light switch, on its own, yes probably inconvenient rather than disabling.  But extrapolate that to other seemingly simple/insignificant compulsions and rituals, and it's very easy to see how getting stuck on multiple things that, by themselves would be insignificant, can actually have a cumulative disabling impact on trying to carry out even simple activities.  (I speak from experience.  Boy howdy am I ever grateful that experience was already in the past by the time the pandemic hit!)

Hopefully now OP has realised they experience OCD symptoms, they can evaluate the impact on the daily living activities assessed by PIP.  Most likely will be the time aspect ('no more than twice as long as a nondisabled person') and perhaps 'to an acceptable standard' depending on the activity and the specific effects on OP.

tifo

peteuk said:

 Youve mentioned you avoid public transport due to germs but this has no real affect on your PIP assessment.  It doesn't physically stop you from moving (although I recognise your physical conditions do) equally you can still plan a journey but just plan it without public transport. 

I've not used my use of public transport in my PIP claim, i didn't mention it anywhere but the assessor asked if i use public transport and i answered truthfully that i don't and would not want to as i don't want to sit on the seats or touch handrails etc. but the other fact is i've always had a car or a lift so there's no need for public transport except on a rare occasion, which i mentioned to the assessor was about 6 years ago on train. I later remembered that i used the bus once in 2022 when i went to collect a car from a nearby town. That's it for many many years.

tifo

Spoonie_Turtle said:

Per OCDUK: "Criterion B emphasizes that obsessions and compulsions must be time-consuming (e.g., more than 1 hour per day) or cause clinically significant distress or impairment to warrant a diagnosis of OCD. This criterion helps to distinguish the disorder from the occasional intrusive thoughts or repetitive behaviors that are common in the general population (e.g., double-checking that a door is locked). The frequency and severity of obsessions and compulsions vary across individuals with OCD (e.g., some have mild to moderate symptoms, spending 1—3 hours per day obsessing or doing compulsions, whereas others have nearly constant intrusive thoughts or compulsions that can be incapacitating)."

Hopefully now OP has realised they experience OCD symptoms, they can evaluate the impact on the daily living activities assessed by PIP.  Most likely will be the time aspect ('no more than twice as long as a nondisabled person') and perhaps 'to an acceptable standard' depending on the activity and the specific effects on OP.

Yes, i need to evaluate my OCD and how it affects me daily.

Thanks for the info on criterions. This "Most individuals with OCD have both obsessions and compulsions. Compulsions are typically performed in response to an obsession (e.g., thoughts of contamination leading to washing rituals or that something is incorrect leading to repeating rituals until it feels “just right”)" is exactly what i do, i repeat many things, inc washing rituals, about 4-5 times until i think it's 'just right'. That's separate to washing my hands all day.

peteuk

@Spoonie_Turtle totally 100%.

I had a client on a PIP assessment who had a ritual when leaving the room, as I mentioned the effect was minimal.  I can’t remember if they had a diagnosis or not. (I would assume not)

Equally I had a client who would obsessively wash their hands to the point that they were referred to dermatology because their skin was affected,

The point I was trying to make was, how does the OPs OCD affect them daily.  If all it is, is an avoidance of public transport then the effect is minimal and wont affect them daily PIP application.  The OP has already shown they hang onto ideas, providing percentages and showing that theres a belief they are due PIP because of their diagnosis and now 16 pages in the notion of OCD (undiagnosed).  It has already been mentioned that the tribunal may have questioned the liability of the OP and to be honest given that they have been through a PIP assessment before, the disclosure and surprise of my ocd stops me from using public transport with nothing mentioned on pre assessment would, in my opinion just further demonstrate this un reliability.

I challenged the OP to think about their “OCD” and how it affects their life.  I would be very suprised if they are awarded PIP,  I can only go with their presentation on here, but with gout not being such an issue at present and other conditions that could lead to a PIP award, it seems to me they are too eager to get a PIP award.

tifo

peteuk said:

@Spoonie_Turtle totally 100%.

I had a client on a PIP assessment who had a ritual when leaving the room, as I mentioned the effect was minimal.  I can’t remember if they had a diagnosis or not. (I would assume not)

Equally I had a client who would obsessively wash their hands to the point that they were referred to dermatology because their skin was affected,

The point I was trying to make was, how does the OPs OCD affect them daily.  If all it is, is an avoidance of public transport then the effect is minimal and wont affect them daily PIP application.  The OP has already shown they hang onto ideas, providing percentages and showing that theres a belief they are due PIP because of their diagnosis and now 16 pages in the notion of OCD (undiagnosed).  It has already been mentioned that the tribunal may have questioned the liability of the OP and to be honest given that they have been through a PIP assessment before, the disclosure and surprise of my ocd stops me from using public transport with nothing mentioned on pre assessment would, in my opinion just further demonstrate this un reliability.

I challenged the OP to think about their “OCD” and how it affects their life.  I would be very suprised if they are awarded PIP,  I can only go with their presentation on here, but with gout not being such an issue at present and other conditions that could lead to a PIP award, it seems to me they are too eager to get a PIP award.

I appreciate what you say from your experience.

In terms of reliability, everything i said in my previous PIP assessment was truthful, whether it met the descriptors in the assessors or tribunal opinion is a different matter. Whilst it's well documented that the assessors don't always get it right, hence many awards from review or tribunal, i was surprised by the judge not believing me in the previous tribunal and which then meant i was fighting an already uphill battle. For the same symptoms, conditions, affects and 2 assessment reports the judge in the WCA tribunal believed me and awarded LCW, yes i understand the criteria is different but he did not say he does not believe me, in that tribunal the Dr was very helpful, prompting me on many things. 

I've answered truthfully again in this PIP claim.

I'm not hanging onto a belief here i think, i'm presenting my conditions, symptoms and affects as they are. I'm not obsessed with PIP. I made the previous claim when the JC work coach prompted me to following the WCA and this time it's the affects of new conditions. In the previous PIP claim there was no osteoarthritis or OCD so i think it's slightly unfair to say i'm eager for PIP because i have new conditions that may meet descriptors. And 2 claims in 5 years is not being too eager i think (2021 and 2025). 

peteuk

Put it another way, your posts are confusing PIP and WCA assessments, youve take a previous PIP claim to MR and tribunal.  I have taken others thoughts on this posted and put it all together. 

So what was the time frame between returning the questionnaire and the assessment…if it was a year then sure things change.  But you admit you didn’t mention OCD until the assessment.  16 pages and it’s only now mentioned as undiagnosed.  Im not expecting you to agree but it all appears a little too convenient in an attempt to bolster your claim.

As I have said on other threads if the assessor has more evidence to discount a condition than they do to include it then thats what they will do.  For instance an undiagnosed, untreated condition that only stops you getting public transport will not factor into any of the report, unless its used negatively to in mobility eg claimant notes OCD stops them from using public transport, with no specialist import and no confirmed diagnosis or treatment….

Now lets say a claimant can drive, its a manual car and can drive to work and back, it takes 40 minutes each journey.  Claims arthritis in the hand stops them from using a knife and fork.   Evidence shows they can grip a steering wheel and gear stick to be able to drive 40 minutes, if there is no specialist (rheumatology input) and very little in the way of medication then the overall evidence points to can grip a steering wheel so can use a knife and fork.  (Ive oversimplified this to use it as an example) 

Perversely, if 3 years later they have sold the car, because they cant grip a steering wheel, they are under specialist care and have a letter from said specialist noting a loss of fine motor grip and have proof of increasing medication then the overall picture is they are unlikely to be able to hold a knife and fork without some handle grip or aid.