Section 13 rent increase

RHemmings

Halabala9 said:

Edit:

https://www.familylaw.co.uk/news_and_comment/service-by-whatsapp

That seems like a totally different situation. They rather didn't have any agreement signed that specifically mentioned methods of notices. 

I said that it was a completely different situation. It establishes that WhatsApp messages can have validity in some situations, so they cannot be ruled out as legal just because they are sent via WhatsApp. 

In your situation you have the clause in the contract. Hence, you could easily wait a while and then reply to your landlord pointing out that the contract specifies notices sent through the post and that you are waiting for a notice delivered in that way before you consider the notice to be valid. Legally that may or may not hold, but you can do it and the most likely result is that the landlord will re-issue the notice. 

Then you can challenge by tribunal, putting aside the extra rent in case you have to pay it later. 

Halabala9

silvercar said:

It may not be about you. It could be that the new buyer is a landlord who intends increasing the current rent. So to oblige, you get the rent increase notice, so the new landlord gets a higher rent or an empty property. It may even be that the new landlord needs to show a higher rent in order to get their mortgage.

No, it's not the case. As I said, I was getting along with that landlord very well and had a chat with her a couple of times. She sold it to a person that will live in that property and we both agreed to keep each other in the loop with my purchase and her sale. She told me, once she found a buyer a couple of months ago, that most likely I'll be able to stay in the property till October / November. She even said that if I've got a delay with my purchase, she can delay her sale by a month or two by her solicitor. So that message was like total !!!!!! for me, as it doesn't make sense at all considering my and her circumstances. 

BarelySentientAI

RHemmings said:

Halabala9 said:

Edit:

https://www.familylaw.co.uk/news_and_comment/service-by-whatsapp

That seems like a totally different situation. They rather didn't have any agreement signed that specifically mentioned methods of notices. 

In your situation you have the clause in the contract. Hence, you could easily wait a while and then reply to your landlord pointing out that the contract specifies notices sent through the post and that you are waiting for a notice delivered in that way before you consider the notice to be valid. Legally that may or may not hold, but you can do it and the most likely result is that the landlord will re-issue the notice. 

It won't hold, because as noted previously the contract doesn't specify notices by post, but the landlord won't know that so it would be a decent delaying tactic.

user1977

BarelySentientAI said:

RHemmings said:

Halabala9 said:

Edit:

https://www.familylaw.co.uk/news_and_comment/service-by-whatsapp

That seems like a totally different situation. They rather didn't have any agreement signed that specifically mentioned methods of notices. 

In your situation you have the clause in the contract. Hence, you could easily wait a while and then reply to your landlord pointing out that the contract specifies notices sent through the post and that you are waiting for a notice delivered in that way before you consider the notice to be valid. Legally that may or may not hold, but you can do it and the most likely result is that the landlord will re-issue the notice. 

It won't hold, because as noted previously the contract doesn't specify notices by post, but the landlord won't know that so it would be a decent delaying tactic.

Also, acknowledging that you have received a notice would somewhat hamper your ability to later argue that the landlord needs to prove you received it...

Halabala9

user1977 said:

BarelySentientAI said:

RHemmings said:

Halabala9 said:

Edit:

https://www.familylaw.co.uk/news_and_comment/service-by-whatsapp

That seems like a totally different situation. They rather didn't have any agreement signed that specifically mentioned methods of notices. 

In your situation you have the clause in the contract. Hence, you could easily wait a while and then reply to your landlord pointing out that the contract specifies notices sent through the post and that you are waiting for a notice delivered in that way before you consider the notice to be valid. Legally that may or may not hold, but you can do it and the most likely result is that the landlord will re-issue the notice. 

It won't hold, because as noted previously the contract doesn't specify notices by post, but the landlord won't know that so it would be a decent delaying tactic.

Also, acknowledging that you have received a notice would somewhat hamper your ability to later argue that the landlord needs to prove you received it...

That is my concern and that is why I haven't answered anything. I have got a couple of ideas, but the problem is that some of them obviously acknowledge that I received something, hence I am thinking that the best idea is to stay silent. Options I was thinking about:

1) Simply have a chat with her and ask !!!!!! is that after all that great landlord / tenant relationship we had. Maybe she forgot I am buying a flat, maybe she thinks that it went silent so I pulled out. Maybe her purchase fell through and she decided to keep the property on the rental market. I don’t know, just trying to find some logic here

RISK - I obviously show that I received something. Can play dumb that the photo isn’t clear (which isn’t far from truth, as WhatsApp lowers the resolution).

2) If I understand S13 notice, it needs to be served at least 1 full rental period. My idea is to hang fire a week or two, let her know that according to our tenancy agreement, we agreed to send notifications by post / email etc. That could delay it by 1 month, as she would lose September, as that message would be communicated after the rent payment, so would have to give me another period notice: 

RISK - As above, I obviously show that I received something

3) I stay silent. Next month I pay my normal rent. Then she will obviously is going to contact me (the question is how), if it’s by WhatsApp again, if I answer, she will say that the photo is sent above. If I don’t answer, she will most likely try to phone me or send an email or a letter. And then it would be a good moment for me to pick up the Tenancy Agreement and play dumb. Theoretically WhatsApp showing a small icon that something is received, but it means nothing, I am not the only one using my phone, somebody else might have pick it up and close it not even checking, I might have been doing something on the phone (playing the game) clicked and closed not even noticing etc. I have got no obligation to use WhatsApp at all.

I think option 3 is the best. In the worst case scenario, I would have to pay it + probably 3% delay penalty or something (at least I hope it’s only this).

silvercar

Halabala9 said:

user1977 said:

BarelySentientAI said:

RHemmings said:

Halabala9 said:

Edit:

https://www.familylaw.co.uk/news_and_comment/service-by-whatsapp

That seems like a totally different situation. They rather didn't have any agreement signed that specifically mentioned methods of notices. 

In your situation you have the clause in the contract. Hence, you could easily wait a while and then reply to your landlord pointing out that the contract specifies notices sent through the post and that you are waiting for a notice delivered in that way before you consider the notice to be valid. Legally that may or may not hold, but you can do it and the most likely result is that the landlord will re-issue the notice. 

It won't hold, because as noted previously the contract doesn't specify notices by post, but the landlord won't know that so it would be a decent delaying tactic.

Also, acknowledging that you have received a notice would somewhat hamper your ability to later argue that the landlord needs to prove you received it...

....

3) I stay silent. Next month I pay my normal rent. Then she will obviously is going to contact me (the question is how), if it’s by WhatsApp again, if I answer, she will say that the photo is sent above. If I don’t answer, she will most likely try to phone me or send an email or a letter. And then it would be a good moment for me to pick up the Tenancy Agreement and play dumb. Theoretically WhatsApp showing a small icon that something is received, but it means nothing, I am not the only one using my phone, somebody else might have pick it up and close it not even checking, I might have been doing something on the phone (playing the game) clicked and closed not even noticing etc. I have got no obligation to use WhatsApp at all.

I think option 3 is the best. In the worst case scenario, I would have to pay it + probably 3% delay penalty or something (at least I hope it’s only this).

She only has to prove delivery, not that you have read it. The analogy is a letter in the post. She only has to show it was delivered (actually that is deemed to have arrived 2 days after posting, so only needs to show posting but you get the point).. So saying you are not the only one using your phone, well anyone else in your house like a visitor could have picked it up. Arguably a phone is more personal than a letter box. The fact you may have been playing a game and clicked closed is irrelevant, she only needs to show delivery, not open and read.  You could have whatsApp on your phone but not use it, then the "read" icon wouldn't display; but arguably if you have WhatsApp on your phone and it was delivered then you have "received" it. A bit like you saying you don't look at what falls through the letter box and leave mail to pile up, it isn't her problem if you don't open mail. 

Jemma01

If you've been responding to her via whatsapp, and that's been the means of comms between you two over the tenancy agreement, then "playing dumb" is probably dumb in itself. If you had issues with whatsapp being a means of comms either due to failure in receiving messages, or "unreadable messages", then that should have been raised before. I communicate with my landlord via email, if he suddenly wakes up one day (because he didn't like my notice to exit) and decides it wasn't good enough for him, and now he wants our comms via post, I'd tell him very kindly to f off.

MobileSaver

Halabala9 said:

They could have written literally one sentence "Any notice needs to be served in writing". Why did we agree emails for example when now I haven't received anything by email or post but on WhatsApp instead?

Yes, they could have just written "Any notice needs to be served in writing", the additional clauses simply clarify what is definitively considered to be proof that the notice was served. Importantly that does not mean that other evidence cannot be used as proof that the notice was served.

In this particular case I suspect that the landlord showing the blue check mark on their WhatsApp would be more than sufficient to convince a court that the notice was correctly served.

Halabala9 said:

My question is simple, but it seems to he getting complicated. Can I simply ignore that WhatsApp message based on what I've got in the contract. What if I delete WhatsApp or lose my phone?

You can ignore the message, delete WhatsApp or lose your phone but that's all irrelevant. It doesn't matter whether you actually read the message, just whether it was correctly served. For example, the landlord could have a video of them hand-delivering the notice to you; if you then put a match to it without reading it then it has still been correctly served and so is enforceable...

Halabala9

So if she can deliver it the way she wants, then I totally struggle to understand what is the point in wasting paper writing the entire page to cover Notices in the agreement. I've got it signed through OpenRent, even their own guidance says:

How should you serve a Section 13 notice?

Once you have filled out a Form 4, you will need to serve it on the tenant. 

You can serve the notice through first-class post, hand delivery, or via a process server, unless the tenancy agreement indicates a specific method.

https://blog.openrent.co.uk/how-to-increase-the-rent-by-serving-a-section-13-notice/

I think I'll try my luck.

MobileSaver

Halabala9 said:

I totally struggle to understand what is the point in wasting paper writing the entire page to cover Notices in the agreement. I've got it signed through OpenRent, even their own guidance says:

You can serve the notice through first-class post, hand delivery, or via a process server, unless the tenancy agreement indicates a specific method.

Because you are looking for a silver bullet, you are seeing what you want to see rather than what is actually written.

OpenRent says you "can" do something, that does not mean you cannot do something else... now if it said you "must" do something then that would be very different but that's not what it says.