Section 13 rent increase

RHemmings

I had a look, and there is precedent (very different legal case) for a WhatsApp message to be sufficient for serving legal documents. 

I wouldn't rule it out. 

RHemmings

I had a look, and there is precedent (very different legal case) for a WhatsApp message to be sufficient for serving legal documents. 

I wouldn't rule it out. 

Halabala9

BarelySentientAI said:

Mike997 said:

How can a WhatsApp photo be a legal notice? 

so is there any trick here I can use?

But I need to find some trick to avoid it

Doesn't sound like you're really bothered if it's a legal notice at all though, as you're wanting 'a trick'.

If it isn't legal, no trick needed, it's just not legal.

What you seem to be really asking is "can I bluster and pretend and handwave and try to get away with avoiding this for a month?".

How I wrote the question, doesn't really matter. I'm not planning to pay more, because the new price would be a rip off. I can have similar flats for exactly the same price in way nicer parts of that city. The thing is that because I'm close to finalising the purchase, I'm not going to rent anything anymore so I want to know if it was served legally or not. If you've got a problem with that question, why do you bother to answer here at all?

Halabala9

user1977 said:

Mike997 said:

Jemma01 said:

Mike997 said:

Jemma01 said:

I thought they needed to give you a month notice to increase the rent, and it is not on immediate effect? Does it not state which month?

Gov.uk says

"Your landlord must give you a minimum of one month’s notice (if you pay rent weekly or monthly)."

It is 1 month and that photo states it will be from 25th September. But I need to find some trick to avoid it, as I said, that flat isn't worth £1 more. My idea is - since the notice needs to be given with full 1 month between rents, and it's already 21st today, I think if I wait few more days, and tell her after 25th that sending a photo isn't a legally valid notice, she will lose one month I think, as then the increase could take place from 25th October. Most likely she will serve Section 21 notice but I don't want to pay even 1 month increase.

I can't imagine it being illegal. It is in writing. But then I'm not a lawyer.

Just remember your purchase could fall through if you are in a chain, and she would be able to take it out of your deposit, since she's within her capacity to increase the rent. Personally, I'd challenge it in the hope she backs out and not deduct it from my deposit.

How can a WhatsApp photo be a legal notice? I've had plenty of problems with WhatsApp when I couldn't see a photo properly as it was showing some very low resolution one. 

But you can obviously read this one, because you've told us what it says...

And what does it change in the question "Was it served legally or not"?

BarelySentientAI

Mike997 said:

BarelySentientAI said:

Mike997 said:

How can a WhatsApp photo be a legal notice? 

so is there any trick here I can use?

But I need to find some trick to avoid it

Doesn't sound like you're really bothered if it's a legal notice at all though, as you're wanting 'a trick'.

If it isn't legal, no trick needed, it's just not legal.

What you seem to be really asking is "can I bluster and pretend and handwave and try to get away with avoiding this for a month?".

How I wrote the question, doesn't really matter. 

It does, because the two questions would have different useful answers.

If you intend to challenge through the legal system, then whether it is legal or not matters (and incidentally, it probably is).  If that's all you wanted to know, then there you go.

If what you want is to delay for the extra week or two, play dumb, claim the picture didn't come through well enough to read, try and negotiate a different increase (even if you don't intend to pay it, negotiation takes time), suggest that shelter said that a certain form had to be used and you have an appointment with CAB to discuss whether this counts...

_Penny_Dreadful

Does your tenancy agreement say that notices can be served via WhatsApp? I doubt it. Pointless to ask for a Section 21 notice instead as there’s nothing preventing a landlord from issuing both a Section 21 and Section 13 notice at the same time. 

It is possible that your landlord has both sent you the WhatsApp message and posted the Section 13 notice to you. Should that be the case then the “trick” you’re looking for would be to challenge the rent increase at the tribunal which may or may not go in your favour. There’s a sticky at the top of the board for Tenancies in England and Wales that includes a section about rent increases if you want more information. The sticky also includes a section about how and when tenancies can legally be ended which you may also find useful as you do not wish to get caught out by tenancy periods. 

Halabala9

_Penny_Dreadful said:

Does your tenancy agreement say that notices can be served via WhatsApp? I doubt it. Pointless to ask for a Section 21 notice instead as there’s nothing preventing a landlord from issuing both a Section 21 and Section 13 notice at the same time. 

It is possible that your landlord has both sent you the WhatsApp message and posted the Section 13 notice to you. Should that be the case then the “trick” you’re looking for would be to challenge the rent increase at the tribunal which may or may not go in your favour. There’s a sticky at the top of the board for Tenancies in England and Wales that includes a section about rent increases if you want more information. The sticky also includes a section about how and when tenancies can legally be ended which you may also find useful as you do not wish to get caught out by tenancy periods. 

But how a rent increase can be executed when I want to ask for Section 21 because I don't agree with that rent increase? Can that argument be used at the tribunal?

To me it's simple, landlord serves rent increase notice, I don't agree with it and I'm telling the landlord that I want to leave instead, please serve me Section 21. 

If they can increase it anyway, they can as well increase it by 50% if I'm forced to pay even when I ask to serve Section 21 instead. I need to be protected somehow in such case.

Or I can always go the hard way if she is trying to be smart and simply stop paying and stay in the property. That would derail her sale most likely and would cost her a lot more than that silly rent increase for 1 month. I don't think I've got a valid gas certificate from her.

_Penny_Dreadful

Mike997 said:

_Penny_Dreadful said:

Does your tenancy agreement say that notices can be served via WhatsApp? I doubt it. Pointless to ask for a Section 21 notice instead as there’s nothing preventing a landlord from issuing both a Section 21 and Section 13 notice at the same time. 

It is possible that your landlord has both sent you the WhatsApp message and posted the Section 13 notice to you. Should that be the case then the “trick” you’re looking for would be to challenge the rent increase at the tribunal which may or may not go in your favour. There’s a sticky at the top of the board for Tenancies in England and Wales that includes a section about rent increases if you want more information. The sticky also includes a section about how and when tenancies can legally be ended which you may also find useful as you do not wish to get caught out by tenancy periods. 

But how a rent increase can be executed when I want to ask for Section 21 because I don't agree with that rent increase? Can that argument be used at the tribunal?

To me it's simple, landlord serves rent increase notice, I don't agree with it and I'm telling the landlord that I want to leave instead, please serve me Section 21. 

If they can increase it anyway, they can as well increase it by 50% if I'm forced to pay even when I ask to serve Section 21 instead. I need to be protected somehow in such case.

Or I can always go the hard way if she is trying to be smart and simply stop paying and stay in the property. That would derail her sale most likely and would cost her a lot more than that silly rent increase for 1 month. I don't think I've got a valid gas certificate from her.

No, that’s not an argument for tribunal. To succeed at tribunal for the rent increase you’d need to demonstrate the rent increase would make the rent more than the rent for comparable properties in the area. 

It might seem simple in your mind but that’s because you’re completely wrong. They are two unrelated notices. A Section 13 notice increases the rent during a periodic tenancy. A Section 21 notice gives you two months notice that the landlord might go to court for a possession order. One notice does not cancel the other out. 

BarelySentientAI

Asking for an S21 is a very strange idea.  If you want to leave, you give notice and leave, you don't ask to be evicted.

And as mentioned above, neither cancels out a rent increase.

Your protection against a 50% increase is the tribunal, at which the argument would be that 50% increase puts it way above market rent.

How much are we arguing about here? What is one month's worth of the tent increase (you say you're only paying it for a month), £50 in total? £100?

Halabala9

BarelySentientAI said:

Asking for an S21 is a very strange idea.  If you want to leave, you give notice and leave, you don't ask to be evicted.

And as mentioned above, neither cancels out a rent increase.

Your protection against a 50% increase is the tribunal, at which the argument would be that 50% increase puts it way above market rent.

How much are we arguing about here? What is one month's worth of the tent increase (you say you're only paying it for a month), £50 in total? £100?

Asking for S21 in my case isn't a strange idea. As I mentioned, I'm 4 months into purchasing a flat, I've got most likely 4-6 weeks left before I can move in, so I can't give 30 days notice now. S21 gives me 2 months, so that would most likely work for me. And when I'm saying "tricks", I'm not talking about anything illegal. It's more about "tricks" people use for S21 like when gas certificate (or EPC certificate) isn't up to date, the S21 then isn't valid etc. Hence my question about serving S13 notice method. I need to check the tenancy agreement.

We are talking about £200 here but as I mentioned, it's not about money it that case. It is one of those "Enough is enough" situations. For that money, there are flats available in the nicest parts of the city (and trust me, that building isn't nice and isn't in a nice area...), on top of that raising it right at the end, when she is about to finish her sale and I am about to finish my purchase makes that absurd situation even worse. Call me a weirdo, but she is taking the !!!!!! here and I don't like when people are playing with me like that. When she was organizing viewings, I was never making it difficult, even when I was getting 30min notice. I was going for a walk, so they can show the flat. When I was away I was always letting them in the flat with their keys no problem and those viewings were very painful, because she couldn't find a buyer for a long time due to high price she wanted. I was always paying on time and had a really good relationship with that couple, so I can't understand the level of absurd of that situtation.