Missold car finance, lying and bullying by car dealership

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  • Grumpy_chap
    Grumpy_chap Posts: 17,812 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Combo Breaker
    born_again said:
    zuto finance is a bit of a red herring in all this.
    Although knowing exactly which type of finance there were proving you would help?
    Which brand of car are we looking  at?

    Did Zuto provided the finance for the 2nd hand car, which I do not understand how you went from a new car purchase, despite it being a back order, which is not a normal process.
    I know of many dealers/marques where the norm is many months delay on new car delivery. They do not offer a 2nd hand car purchase in the mean time, you just have to wait till the car comes in.
    I agree with you that the Zuto finance is a red herring as it seems to be an option the OP never progressed.

    I think I understand how the OP got from enquiring about a brand new car to a second hand car:
    1. The OP mentioned their old car as being defunct and relying on a bicycle.
    2. The OP saw the SUV advertised on line and was pre-approved for the Zuto finance (which the OP made their own enquiries about before visiting the Dealer)
    3. The OP then visited the Dealer, who suggested the PCP finance with incentives would be better than the Zuto finance / cash purchase.
    4. The OP liked the brand new SUV, but could not immediately order because the model was not yet released.  A pre-order could be placed (which it is unclear whether actually happened - fee paid).  Regardless, that seemed to not be processed by the Dealership.
    5. In discussions with the Dealer, the OP said they cannot wait over a year for the brand new SUV as they are currently without a car.
    6. The Dealer pivoted the OP to a 2nd hand car that was available immediately, with the comment that once the brand new SUV could be available and firm order placed, the OP could then trade in the 2nd hand car and transfer across.  The Dealer may well have mentioned that it would be possible to settle the finance on the 2nd hand car as part of the subsequent process to purchase the brand new SUV on PCP.
    7. The Dealer arranged PCP finance on the second hand car.
    8. The OP drove away in the second hand car.
    The big part where the OP dissatisfaction seems to originate from is the detail of the discussions at step 8 and the provenance of the phrase "temporary car".  Was, as the OP seems to believe, that phrase loaded with some special meaning and guarantee about future exchange to the brand new SUV?  OR, was that purely a conversational term?  I suspect the latter.
    • I'd like one of these £50k SUVs please.
    • They are on over a year's lead time
    • I need a car quicker than that because my old car is defunct.
    • Would you consider a cheaper, 2nd hand car as a temporary measure, and then you can return in a year if you wish and trade up to the SUV?
    • ...

    Okell said:
    You won't want to hear this but I don't think running a spell checker over your document will fix it...    :/

    Thank you - I thought the same, so you save me form saying it.

    Okell said:

    @grumpy_chap has analysed your problem in a way that seems to make sense to me, but you've just said "no, no, no" and that he's got it wrong.  I don't think he's a stupid person 
    Thank you :)

    Okell said:

    FWIW, I tend to agree with @Olinda99's posts - what appears to have happened shouldn't have happened to you.  But I don't know who is at fault.  I can't tell from your explanation of events whether the dealer was at fault or whether you simply failed to understand the transaction that you seem to have freely agreed to.  I'm not sure I understand what you think the finance provider has done wrong.

    I'd also agree - the misunderstandings / miscommunications that have occurred should not have occurred.
    They have occurred and the OP needs to focus on resolutions in a positive way.  That might mean accepting (even reluctantly) that some of the misunderstanding / miscommunication may have been by themselves.

    Your further comments all seem sound and sensible next steps for the OP to consider.
    Unfortunately, the OP has seen any requests for clarification as attacks and fallen into the position of favouring the sympathetic response.  I do not see any of the comments made by anyone as attacks, but positive comments for the OP to take on board to make their case more clearly.

    I, too, hope that the OP will be able to update as and when the Ombudsman finding is concluded, with details and rationale of the outcome as this is certainly an interesting case and the more we all learn, the more the power of the forum grows in the future.
  • Ehi
    Ehi Posts: 82 Forumite
    Third Anniversary 10 Posts Name Dropper
    edited 17 August 2024 at 5:00PM

    @Okell

    I assume English is not your first language and I'm afraid that it is the way in which you have chosen to present and to express your complaint that is the problem.  It's both confused and confusing.

    This thread has run for 7 pages and the majority of contributors - who are quite experienced in making sense of poorly explained and convoluted consumer finance problems - have said that they either don't understand your complaint or that you have no valid complaint agaianst the finance provider.  Whether the last bit is true I don't know - because I don't understand how or why you ended up where you are.
    If English is not my 1st language, because I made a typo, then I think the pot is calling the kettle black ? We all make mistakes and I wont crucify you or anyone for it. I have tried to be polite and respectful btw, I am a londoner, who simply moved out of London FYI

    I am sure, looking at your comments in bold, you too make typos and I or no one will crucify and stone you for them  :D

    If you look at the last post e.g.
    @born_again
    Which brand of car are we looking  at?
    Did Zuto provided the finance for the 2nd hand car, which I do not understand how you went from a new car purchase, despite it being a back order, which is not a normal process.
    born_again said:
    So just who is this company & which car?

    I am asked the same question over and over and I repeat, over again.
    @Ehi
    I got the zuto finance, because as I said and (I repeat) I have never owned a brand new car and had used zuto finance in the past before, so got another fresh quote online and was speaking to a remote dealer,(about getting a brand new car, which this remote dealer as advertizing, but did not have in stock)
    I have said, no point

    @grumpy_chap
    1. The OP mentioned their old car as being defunct and relying on a bicycle.
    1. The OP saw the SUV advertised on line and was pre-approved for the Zuto finance (which the OP made their own enquiries about before visiting the Dealer)
    1. The OP then visited the Dealer, who suggested the PCP finance with incentives would be better than the Zuto finance / cash purchase.
    1. The OP liked the brand new SUV, but could not immediately order because the model was not yet released.  A pre-order could be placed (which it is unclear whether actually happened - fee paid).  Regardless, that seemed to not be processed by the Dealership.
    1. In discussions with the Dealer, the OP said they cannot wait over a year for the brand new SUV as they are currently without a car.
    1. The Dealer pivoted the OP to a 2nd hand car that was available immediately, with the comment that once the brand new SUV could be available and firm order placed, the OP could then trade in the 2nd hand car and transfer across.  The Dealer may well have mentioned that it would be possible to settle the finance on the 2nd hand car as part of the subsequent process to purchase the brand new SUV on PCP.
    1. The Dealer arranged PCP finance on the second hand car.
    1. The OP drove away in the second hand car.
    The big part where the OP dissatisfaction seems to originate from is the detail of the discussions at step 8 and the provenance of the phrase "temporary car".  Was, as the OP seems to believe, that phrase loaded with some special meaning and guarantee about future exchange to the brand new SUV?  OR, was that purely a conversational term?  I suspect the latter.
    • I'd like one of these £50k SUVs please.
    • They are on over a year's lead time
    • I need a car quicker than that because my old car is defunct.
    • Would you consider a cheaper, 2nd hand car as a temporary measure, and then you can return in a year if you wish and trade up to the SUV?
    I agree with you that the Zuto finance is a red herring as it seems to be an option the OP never progressed.
    I think I understand how the OP got from enquiring about a brand new car to a second hand car:


    Finally, You are understanding. Thank you

    @grumpy_chap
    I'd also agree - the misunderstandings / miscommunications that have occurred should not have occurred.
    They have occurred and the OP needs to focus on resolutions in a positive way.  That might mean accepting (even reluctantly) that some of the misunderstanding / miscommunication may have been by themselves.
    Your further comments all seem sound and sensible next steps for the OP to consider.
    Unfortunately, the OP has seen any requests for clarification as attacks and fallen into the position of favouring the sympathetic response.  I do not see any of the comments made by anyone as attacks, but positive comments for the OP to take on board to make their case more clearly.
    I, too, hope that the OP will be able to update as and when the Ombudsman finding is concluded, with details and rationale of the outcome as this is certainly an interesting case and the more we all learn, the more the power of the forum grows in the future.


    Spot on, its not rocket science

  • Grumpy_chap
    Grumpy_chap Posts: 17,812 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Combo Breaker
    Ehi said:
    If English is not my 1st language, because I made a typo, then I think the pot is calling the kettle black 

    You may well still benefit from having the draft compliant / submission to the Ombudsman reviewed and proof-read prior to submission.  Some of the apparent errors in spelling and grammar will not be caught by a spell-check and do appear to possibly change the whole meaning of what has been written from what you may have intended to be understood.

    There is a big difference between the importance of accurate spelling and grammar in a formal submission to an Ombudsman and a casual comment typed quickly in an internet forum by way of assistance to another.

    While your case is not clear to me, I'd hate to see that you failed simply through poorly expressing the case to the Ombudsman.


    Grumpy_chap said:

    I think I understand how the OP got from enquiring about a brand new car to a second hand car:
    1. The OP mentioned their old car as being defunct and relying on a bicycle.
    2. The OP saw the SUV advertised on line and was pre-approved for the Zuto finance (which the OP made their own enquiries about before visiting the Dealer)
    3. The OP then visited the Dealer, who suggested the PCP finance with incentives would be better than the Zuto finance / cash purchase.
    4. The OP liked the brand new SUV, but could not immediately order because the model was not yet released.  A pre-order could be placed (which it is unclear whether actually happened - fee paid).  Regardless, that seemed to not be processed by the Dealership.
    5. In discussions with the Dealer, the OP said they cannot wait over a year for the brand new SUV as they are currently without a car.
    6. The Dealer pivoted the OP to a 2nd hand car that was available immediately, with the comment that once the brand new SUV could be available and firm order placed, the OP could then trade in the 2nd hand car and transfer across.  The Dealer may well have mentioned that it would be possible to settle the finance on the 2nd hand car as part of the subsequent process to purchase the brand new SUV on PCP.
    7. The Dealer arranged PCP finance on the second hand car.
    8. The OP drove away in the second hand car.
    The big part where the OP dissatisfaction seems to originate from is the detail of the discussions at step 8 and the provenance of the phrase "temporary car".  Was, as the OP seems to believe, that phrase loaded with some special meaning and guarantee about future exchange to the brand new SUV?  OR, was that purely a conversational term?  I suspect the latter.
    • I'd like one of these £50k SUVs please.
    • They are on over a year's lead time
    • I need a car quicker than that because my old car is defunct.
    • Would you consider a cheaper, 2nd hand car as a temporary measure, and then you can return in a year if you wish and trade up to the SUV?
    • ...
    Ehi said:
    Finally, You are understanding. Thank you


    OK - so the very important part here is understanding the phrase "temporary car" and what provenance that phrase has in the whole context.  It seems to be a large part of your complaint and reason for dissatisfaction.  It is not clear to me that this phrase should have anywhere near the level of prominence you place on it.

    Your interpretation seems to be that there is some pre-agreed contractual link between you buying the £17k 7yo hatchback, having the brand new SUV on pre-order (or not), and then changing the hatchback after some 13 months of having the use of it for the brand new SUV.

    In my experience, that type of arrangement would be very unusual.  What I suspect is that there is a series of unconnected contractual steps, with decision points at each stage which can simply stop at any part:
    • Place the pre-order for the SUV, and pay the pre-order fee (no pre-order if no fee paid)
    • Buy the £17k 7yo hatchback and use it until such time as you decide to dispose of it.
    • Get notified that the SUV can now be formally ordered - make a decision whether to do so or not.
    • If you wish, trade in the hatchback for the SUV (at whatever future trade-in value is agreed).
    • Or, keep the hatchback
    • Or sell the hatchback elsewhere
    • Or never buy the SUV
    There is no specific meaning to the phrase "temporary" in this process.  Anything you buy is only temporary until you decide to sell it / buy something else.

    For comparison, I was made redundant in 2015 and gave back my company car. 
    In 2016, I needed a car and purchased a "temporary", "stop-gap", "interim" car with the view if it lasted 6 months to a year I had done well.
    In the end, I kept that car until last year (2023) when I gave it to my Nephew (who happened to need a "temporary" car so he could get to work as his Clio finally died).  I purchased a new car from elsewhere.
    My Nephew has kept that car until a couple of months back, when he scrapped it.  My Nephew purchased a car from elsewhere.
    So, "temporary" really has no meaning whatsoever.  I am also quite sure that had I returned to the original Dealer at any time who sold me the "temporary" car and chatted about it being a "temporary" car and now wanting something better suited to my needs, the original Dealer would have been perfectly happy to sell me a replacement car and take back the "temporary" car on an appropriate trade in basis.
    It would have been a similar route to that which you hope to follow, but there was never any contractual obligation for the "temporary" car to be taken back at any point.
    Nothing you have said in the thread convinces me that there is anything firmer in the use of the phrase "temporary" car than the fact the Dealer would trade it back in and sell you a new car should you wish to.
    You seem to have placed stronger reliance on the phrase "temporary" car as having some more specific meaning.



    born_again     said:
    So just who is this company & which car?

    Ehi said:
    I am asked the same question over and over and I repeat, over again.
    I have said, no point

    You are entitled to share, or withhold, any information you wish and to refuse to answer the questions that people pose to try to understand the situation.
    Your responses do come across as rather blunt and also do not support people in better understanding the whole situation.  This leaves others to make their own judgement to fill in the gaps and then try to help accordingly.

    I have asked about the pre-order fee, which you advised was £1k, and whether you actually paid that fee.
    You have not clarified this.
    I have only asked, because the status of the pre-order and whether it has actually been processed / should have been processed is quite crucial to the understanding of the position and your rights in this case.
    While you refuse to confirm that the pre-order fee was paid, I (and others) have to make our own assessment.  I tend towards the assessment that the pre-order fee was never paid so there is no pre-order.
    If the pre-order fee was paid, then my assessment would be different and would impact the comments I make accordingly - I'd also be pursuing what happened to the pre-order fee and should you be refunded that amount.

    Anyway, you are not willing or able to advise on the make / model of the SUV, the make / model of the hatchback, or the status with regard to the pre-order fee.  All of that is your prerogative.  I hope you will understand how it makes it more difficult for others to comment and provide constructive and informed suggestions to help your position.
  • Hoenir
    Hoenir Posts: 6,763 Forumite
    1,000 Posts First Anniversary Name Dropper
    Aylesbury_Duck said:
    Ehi said:
    Spot on, its not rocket science

    And neither is answering what seems to be an important question: Have you paid any sort of fee associated with the pre-order of the vehicle you originally wanted?
    And was this ever confirmed into an official order. 
  • Aylesbury_Duck
    Aylesbury_Duck Posts: 15,436 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper
    Hoenir said:
    Aylesbury_Duck said:
    Ehi said:
    Spot on, its not rocket science

    And neither is answering what seems to be an important question: Have you paid any sort of fee associated with the pre-order of the vehicle you originally wanted?
    And was this ever confirmed into an official order. 
    In the absence of any answer to this question, despite it having been asked more than once, I have assumed the same as Grumpy_Chap, that OP hasn't paid any fee or made any official pre-order for the car they wanted.  Otherwise it would feature as a strong support to OP's argument.

    If I'm wrong, it changes my view of OP's situation and their rights.
  • Okell
    Okell Posts: 2,400 Forumite
    1,000 Posts First Anniversary Name Dropper
    Aylesbury_Duck said:
    Ehi said:
    Spot on, its not rocket science

    And neither is answering what seems to be an important question: Have you paid any sort of fee associated with the pre-order of the vehicle you originally wanted?
    Would it be unkind of me to wish that the answer be "No"?        >:)
  • Grumpy_chap
    Grumpy_chap Posts: 17,812 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Combo Breaker
    edited 17 August 2024 at 5:54PM
    Hoenir said:
    Aylesbury_Duck said:
    Ehi said:
    Spot on, its not rocket science

    And neither is answering what seems to be an important question: Have you paid any sort of fee associated with the pre-order of the vehicle you originally wanted?
    And was this ever confirmed into an official order. 
    Well, the OP has said:
    Ehi said:

    3. I was advised by the shortlisted dealership to place an pre-order ( which I did) and got a confirmation email and printed out pre-order receipt ( with my new vehicle spec)

    And
    Ehi said:

    6 dealerships placed adverts on autotrader. But when I called them the story changed, saying I had to wait 4 months and asked me to come down for a test drive, and upon investigation. They would say, I pay £1,000 to pre-order ( As they did not have the vehicle they were advertising).


    Requests to confirm that the pre-order fee was paid have never been answered.

    My take on that (as a whole) is that the Dealer sent the OP the details of the pre-order and required the fee to be paid but the fee was never paid so the pre-order was never processed.

    It is actually quite an important piece in the whole scenario and might well change some of the comments and advice.

  • Ehi
    Ehi Posts: 82 Forumite
    Third Anniversary 10 Posts Name Dropper
    Hoenir said:

    And was this ever confirmed into an official order. 
    Aylesbury_Duck said:
    In the absence of any answer to this question, despite it having been asked more than once, I have assumed the same as Grumpy_Chap, that OP hasn't paid any fee or made any official pre-order for the car they wanted.  Otherwise it would feature as a strong support to OP's argument.


    I believe my very first post, asnwered your questions

    @Ehi said:
    Despite the mass advertizing. I was told it was lead time was 13months and I should not fall victim to scam dealerships and the MD printed out the official TIME SHEET for me with their letterhead and weeks later gave me a test drive car, which I loved and asked to order.
    He said I cant order due to backlog and can only pre-order. Which I then did.
    .....
    3. I was advised by the shortlisted dealership to place an pre-order ( which I did) and got a confirmation email and printed out pre-order receipt ( with my new vehicle spec)
    4. I was told, they could offer me cheaper finance, but first and foremost, I need to pick a 2nd hand car in their forecourt ( and assured me, its a preliminary check that wont affect my credit history as no hard search would be done, until I was offered finance) which I said go ahead
    5. I was emailed later on, that I had been accepted and if I wanted the 2nd hand car, I need to come down and they would waive my pre-order payment (for the brand new car) if I took the 2nd hand car
    ....
    9. Seven Months down the line, they asked me to bring the car in for a service and pay and admitted to mistakes, (Both the dealership and HQ admitted mistakes) they waived half of the service charge and it was at that point, I was told, I never pre-ordered a brand new car as I only came in to inquire about a 2nd hand car, nothing more and the MD to this day, ( Who was patient and extremely friendly initially) has refused to speak to me. I showed them the printed letter head of the brand new car and they denied it and said, I went independently and printed that out own my own. Every email, letterhead etc with their corporate name was either denied or ignored
    10. Despite surmounting evidence, they said they do not know what I am talking about. As I went online to pre-order a car and spec it. Iroonically the pre-order form, has their name on the letterheaded paper and print out date.


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