Tenant not leaving, Failed section 21, Court date

RHemmings

_Penny_Dreadful said:

wackyjoe332 said:

newsgroupmonkey_ said:

I'm going to throw an "out there" comment.
I get the impression that the tenants aren't in any way being a problem to you - in fact, they want to get evicted properly.

If you're sure you got a GSC back in 2017, have you asked them if they have a copy?
As a tenant, I always kept the copies given to me of the GSC.

Tenants had months to look for another accommodation why can’t they just leave if there not being a problem? Does every tenant want landlords to evict them every time they need to move. 

Why do so many landlords find it difficult to issue a valid section 21 notice?

Personally I think it's quite complicated to get it all right if you're coming to this new, and I am not surprised that there are many mistakes made by part-time landlords. 

propertyrental

RHemmings said:

_Penny_Dreadful said:

wackyjoe332 said:

newsgroupmonkey_ said:

I'm going to throw an "out there" comment.
I get the impression that the tenants aren't in any way being a problem to you - in fact, they want to get evicted properly.

If you're sure you got a GSC back in 2017, have you asked them if they have a copy?
As a tenant, I always kept the copies given to me of the GSC.

Tenants had months to look for another accommodation why can’t they just leave if there not being a problem? Does every tenant want landlords to evict them every time they need to move. 

Why do so many landlords find it difficult to issue a valid section 21 notice?

Personally I think it's quite complicated to get it all right if you're coming to this new, and I am not surprised that there are many mistakes made by part-time landlords. 

I think the term used here frequently is 'accidental'.....

2- submit a section 8 on grounds 1 . What documents will I need to submit this now? 

Ideally you'll be able to show you complied with the 1st part of the requirement. If not, you rely on the judge's discretion.

Not later than the beginning of the tenancy the landlord gave notice in writing to the tenant that possession might be recovered on this ground or the court is of the opinion that it is just and equitable to dispense with the requirement of notice

Robbo66

saajan_12 said:

wackyjoe332 said:

saajan_12 said:

wackyjoe332 said:

Thanks for the responses, they are great Ok here's a bullet point of the scenario as requested. 

1- Tenant moved in via letting agent - 12/06/2017 

2- Letting agent passed away and agency closed 01-12-2018 

3- I gave the current tenant a AST from 14-12-2018 and has not been renewed since.

4- April 2024, I decide I want to renovate the flat , new kitchen, bathroom, doors, windows and a complete new roof and move into the property myself, and I issued them a section 21 notice on 1st May 24.

5- When I researched how to issue a section 21, it stated we needed a GSC with the current tenancy and for any prev tenancies. I did not have a copy of the GSC from 2017 so I decided if I create a new tenancy and state the tenants have only been here for 1 year and provide the GSC relevant to this to submit the sec 21 , I would not need to show all previous ones. , hence I 'regretfully' created a new AST backdated from  Feb 23 - Feb 24 and submit this with the GSC for that period.

6- The tenant agreed as they wanted a council property and wanted to be given section 21,  but when the defence form came they filled it out and said everything I wrote about their tenancies was incorrect and they been there since 2017 after getting advice from the local housing officer. 

7- The court stated that the dates of what I wrote and the tenant defence form did not match and wanted to hold a hearing in August. Now section 21 will clearly not work either way now regardless of going to the hearing as I wont be able to get all the GSC since 2017, especially the one the letting agent provided in 2017 as I dont know who he used. 

8-  Do I need to attend the court hearing, they will 99% reject the claim if no GSC is provided I guess? Is it worth avoiding it and then submit a section 8 a few weeks after? 

9-  The decisions I made above, and to not seek legal help was my mistake , I want to find any solution now to get the tenants out. Section 21 has completely failed now, so if I can go down the section 8 route, what steps do I need to take and what grounds do I submit it on.

All help is very much appreciated, thanks for the replies! 

Not necessarily. You would need to be honest on what the actual dates were ie 2017. No need to mention the GSC unless they actually ask for it. There's 82 requirements, they don't routinely examine each one, just if there's a question raised about it. 

Alternatively if you're not going to attend the hearing then no point on losing the time.. withdraw the claim and send the tenant the new notice now. You could send both S21 (with correct dates) and S8 (ground 1) at the same time, to give yourself a fallback. 

This seems like the best plan. Do you know how I will have to withdraw the claim? Also would I serve section 8 under the original tenancy and not the new one I created ? 

What documents are needed for a valid section 8 under grounds 1

thanks 

You haven't created a new tenancy. You agreed a new fixed term, within the single tenancy from 2017. You need to get your head around this before making further rash decisions. 

I would strongly urge serving both notices if you intend to start again. With a S8 G1 the judge MAY ask for proof you actually did / plan to live there if this is questioned. With a S21, the judge MAY ask for proof of the GSC among other things. Or they may not.. better to keep options open. 

Surely a S8 G1 would fail if a Ground one notice wasn't issued at the commencement of the tenancy

propertyrental

Robbo66 said:

Surely a S8 G1 would fail if a Ground one notice wasn't issued at the commencement of the tenancy

See my post above

Not later than the beginning of the tenancy the landlord gave notice in writing to the tenant that possession might be recovered on this ground or the court is of the opinion that it is just and equitable to dispense with the requirement of notice

silvercar

Was today reading an article in The Times (Bricks and Mortar page 3 if anyone wants to read it) which says that if the GSC certificate is served anytime before the S21 it would be valid. It quotes a 2020 case Trecarrel House Ltd vs Rouncefield. The court of appeal decided that a landlord who sent the GSC 9 months after the letting could still serve a S21 notice.

propertyrental

silvercar said:

Was today reading an article in The Times (Bricks and Mortar page 3 if anyone wants to read it) which says that if the GSC certificate is served anytime before the S21 it would be valid. It quotes a 2020 case Trecarrel House Ltd vs Rouncefield. The court of appeal decided that a landlord who sent the GSC 9 months after the letting could still serve a S21 notice.

I believe that is the case provided the LL had a GSR at the start of the tenancy but failed to provide it to the tenant.

If there was no GSR at the start, the LL cannot rectify the failure by subsequent inspection reports.

https://nearlylegal.co.uk/2020/06/the-trecarrell-conundrum/

BarelySentientAI

Is it any wonder that LLs are feeling persecuted when there are judges effectively saying "if that piece of paper was late, then no S21 eviction forever and no way to put it right".  Doesn't seem proportional.

propertyrental

BarelySentientAI said:

Is it any wonder that LLs are feeling persecuted when there are judges effectively saying "if that piece of paper was late, then no S21 eviction forever and no way to put it right".  Doesn't seem proportional.

I think it's the result of poorly drafted legislation rather than the fault of judges who are bound by what the legislation says.

But your point is valid none-the-less

RHemmings

propertyrental said:

BarelySentientAI said:

Is it any wonder that LLs are feeling persecuted when there are judges effectively saying "if that piece of paper was late, then no S21 eviction forever and no way to put it right".  Doesn't seem proportional.

I think it's the result of poorly drafted legislation rather than the fault of judges who are bound by what the legislation says.

But your point is valid none-the-less

Like the proposed changes in the King's Speech, this will only hit landlords that don't do their job properly. Good landlords will not be affected. Failing to confirm that a property is safe to live in before renting it out is not a minor failing - people's lives could be at risk. 

There can be an argument about whether the consequences of a late GSC are proportionate to the error, but it is a big error in any case. 

Good landlords, who will ensure that the property is safe before letting, are not directly affected by this. So, it's not LL's in general that would be discouraged by this, but only those who don't do their jobs properly. 

EDIT: I did a bit of a check, and gas safety certificates are both cheaper and easier to obtain than I thought. One company, at least, in my area is advertising same day service. 

wackyjoe332

propertyrental said:

Robbo66 said:

Surely a S8 G1 would fail if a Ground one notice wasn't issued at the commencement of the tenancy

See my post above

Not later than the beginning of the tenancy the landlord gave notice in writing to the tenant that possession might be recovered on this ground or the court is of the opinion that it is just and equitable to dispense with the requirement of notice

I have been searching how to retract the current section 21 and cancel the court hearing but can’t find anything on the court website. Can you please tell me how this is done ? Once this is retracted I need to service a section 8 G1 
thanks