Tenant not leaving, Failed section 21, Court date

_Penny_Dreadful

IANAL so take this advice with a pinch of salt.

You need to file a notice of discontinuance which requires form N279.

propertyrental

wackyjoe332 said:

propertyrental said:

Robbo66 said:

Surely a S8 G1 would fail if a Ground one notice wasn't issued at the commencement of the tenancy

See my post above

Not later than the beginning of the tenancy the landlord gave notice in writing to the tenant that possession might be recovered on this ground or the court is of the opinion that it is just and equitable to dispense with the requirement of notice

I have been searching how to retract the current section 21 and cancel the court hearing but can’t find anything on the court website. Can you please tell me how this is done ? Once this is retracted I need to service a section 8 G1 
thanks 

Can't help with the court date cancellation, but suggest you phone the court to ask. Or follow penny_dreadful's advice.

Did you serve the required notice for S8 G1 before the tenancy started? If not, you are dependent on the judge allowing this ground, which will be a gamble. So I suggest you serve a new S21 as well, after checking all the criteria - belt and braces.

newsgroupmonkey_

propertyrental said:

BarelySentientAI said:

Is it any wonder that LLs are feeling persecuted when there are judges effectively saying "if that piece of paper was late, then no S21 eviction forever and no way to put it right".  Doesn't seem proportional.

I think it's the result of poorly drafted legislation rather than the fault of judges who are bound by what the legislation says.

But your point is valid none-the-less

What we're forgetting here is that the OP says there WAS a GSC in place. If you go back to the OP, the problem was that it was lodged with an agency whereby the owner died and they've mislaid the paperwork.

Thing is, I'd be surprised if the original Gas Safe plumber doesn't have a copy?

saajan_12

wackyjoe332 said:

saajan_12 said:

wackyjoe332 said:

saajan_12 said:

wackyjoe332 said:

Thanks for the responses, they are great Ok here's a bullet point of the scenario as requested. 

1- Tenant moved in via letting agent - 12/06/2017 

2- Letting agent passed away and agency closed 01-12-2018 

3- I gave the current tenant a AST from 14-12-2018 and has not been renewed since.

4- April 2024, I decide I want to renovate the flat , new kitchen, bathroom, doors, windows and a complete new roof and move into the property myself, and I issued them a section 21 notice on 1st May 24.

5- When I researched how to issue a section 21, it stated we needed a GSC with the current tenancy and for any prev tenancies. I did not have a copy of the GSC from 2017 so I decided if I create a new tenancy and state the tenants have only been here for 1 year and provide the GSC relevant to this to submit the sec 21 , I would not need to show all previous ones. , hence I 'regretfully' created a new AST backdated from  Feb 23 - Feb 24 and submit this with the GSC for that period.

6- The tenant agreed as they wanted a council property and wanted to be given section 21,  but when the defence form came they filled it out and said everything I wrote about their tenancies was incorrect and they been there since 2017 after getting advice from the local housing officer. 

7- The court stated that the dates of what I wrote and the tenant defence form did not match and wanted to hold a hearing in August. Now section 21 will clearly not work either way now regardless of going to the hearing as I wont be able to get all the GSC since 2017, especially the one the letting agent provided in 2017 as I dont know who he used. 

8-  Do I need to attend the court hearing, they will 99% reject the claim if no GSC is provided I guess? Is it worth avoiding it and then submit a section 8 a few weeks after? 

9-  The decisions I made above, and to not seek legal help was my mistake , I want to find any solution now to get the tenants out. Section 21 has completely failed now, so if I can go down the section 8 route, what steps do I need to take and what grounds do I submit it on.

All help is very much appreciated, thanks for the replies! 

Not necessarily. You would need to be honest on what the actual dates were ie 2017. No need to mention the GSC unless they actually ask for it. There's 82 requirements, they don't routinely examine each one, just if there's a question raised about it. 

Alternatively if you're not going to attend the hearing then no point on losing the time.. withdraw the claim and send the tenant the new notice now. You could send both S21 (with correct dates) and S8 (ground 1) at the same time, to give yourself a fallback. 

This seems like the best plan. Do you know how I will have to withdraw the claim? Also would I serve section 8 under the original tenancy and not the new one I created ? 

What documents are needed for a valid section 8 under grounds 1

thanks 

You haven't created a new tenancy. You agreed a new fixed term, within the single tenancy from 2017. You need to get your head around this before making further rash decisions. 

I would strongly urge serving both notices if you intend to start again. With a S8 G1 the judge MAY ask for proof you actually did / plan to live there if this is questioned. With a S21, the judge MAY ask for proof of the GSC among other things. Or they may not.. better to keep options open. 

Yes so the new fixed term ended in Feb 24 so that’s now expired. 

So I need to 
1- withdraw the current section 21 & cancel hearing date somehow.  it it aside , so now how do I get this withdrawn? 

2- submit a section 8 on grounds 1 . What documents will I need to submit this now? 

3- I am not able to get the GSC from 2017 so section 21 route wont work I guess ? To service  valid section 21, do we have to provide all GSC during the time the tenants lived there , or just the first one when they moved in? 

Thanks  !

You don't seem to be reading the advice. I'll post it again once more before giving up. 

saajan_12 said:

wackyjoe332 said:

saajan_12 said:

wackyjoe332 said:

Thanks for the responses, they are great Ok here's a bullet point of the scenario as requested. 

1- Tenant moved in via letting agent - 12/06/2017 

2- Letting agent passed away and agency closed 01-12-2018 

3- I gave the current tenant a AST from 14-12-2018 and has not been renewed since.

4- April 2024, I decide I want to renovate the flat , new kitchen, bathroom, doors, windows and a complete new roof and move into the property myself, and I issued them a section 21 notice on 1st May 24.

5- When I researched how to issue a section 21, it stated we needed a GSC with the current tenancy and for any prev tenancies. I did not have a copy of the GSC from 2017 so I decided if I create a new tenancy and state the tenants have only been here for 1 year and provide the GSC relevant to this to submit the sec 21 , I would not need to show all previous ones. , hence I 'regretfully' created a new AST backdated from  Feb 23 - Feb 24 and submit this with the GSC for that period.

6- The tenant agreed as they wanted a council property and wanted to be given section 21,  but when the defence form came they filled it out and said everything I wrote about their tenancies was incorrect and they been there since 2017 after getting advice from the local housing officer. 

7- The court stated that the dates of what I wrote and the tenant defence form did not match and wanted to hold a hearing in August. Now section 21 will clearly not work either way now regardless of going to the hearing as I wont be able to get all the GSC since 2017, especially the one the letting agent provided in 2017 as I dont know who he used. 

8-  Do I need to attend the court hearing, they will 99% reject the claim if no GSC is provided I guess? Is it worth avoiding it and then submit a section 8 a few weeks after? 

9-  The decisions I made above, and to not seek legal help was my mistake , I want to find any solution now to get the tenants out. Section 21 has completely failed now, so if I can go down the section 8 route, what steps do I need to take and what grounds do I submit it on.

All help is very much appreciated, thanks for the replies! 

Not necessarily. You would need to be honest on what the actual dates were ie 2017. No need to mention the GSC unless they actually ask for it. There's 82 requirements, they don't routinely examine each one, just if there's a question raised about it. 

Alternatively if you're not going to attend the hearing then no point on losing the time.. withdraw the claim and send the tenant the new notice now. You could send both S21 (with correct dates) and S8 (ground 1) at the same time, to give yourself a fallback. 

This seems like the best plan. Do you know how I will have to withdraw the claim? Also would I serve section 8 under the original tenancy and not the new one I created ? 

What documents are needed for a valid section 8 under grounds 1

thanks 

You haven't created a new tenancy. You agreed a new fixed term, within the single tenancy from 2017. You need to get your head around this before making further rash decisions. 

I would strongly urge serving both notices if you intend to start again. With a S8 G1 the judge MAY ask for proof you actually did / plan to live there if this is questioned. With a S21, the judge MAY ask for proof of the GSC among other things. Or they may not.. better to keep options open. 

wackyjoe332

@saajan_12

Here’s what I am going to do is this fine , sorry I’m not an expert at this , and this is really stressful. 

1- withdraw the  first claim and cancel the court date which was set to explain the tenancy dates. 

2- serve another section 21 , and also section 8 G1. 

When I serve the section 21, do I need to provide all the GSC from the time they have lived there ( 2017)? So for every year till now ? I can’t find original from 2017 when they moved in ! 

If you can tell me what documents to serve with the new section 21 please as this is where I messed up before ! 

_Penny_Dreadful

wackyjoe332 said:

@saajan_12

Here’s what I am going to do is this fine , sorry I’m not an expert at this , and this is really stressful. 

1- withdraw the  first claim and cancel the court date which was set to explain the tenancy dates. 

2- serve another section 21 , and also section 8 G1. 

When I serve the section 21, do I need to provide all the GSC from the time they have lived there ( 2017)? So for every year till now ? I can’t find original from 2017 when they moved in ! 

If you can tell me what documents to serve with the new section 21 please as this is where I messed up before ! 

I put the link to the Nearly Legal Section 21 flow chart on page 1 of this thread. Use it to ensure that you have met your prescribed information obligations. 

propertyrental

No you do not need to provide the additional documents (eg gas certificate) with the S21.

If, and only if, the tenant challenges the validity of the S21 on the grounds that you failed to provide the gas cert at the start, then you should produce it to counter the T's claim.

If the T does not challenge the S21 (or does so for a different reason) then the question of the gas cert will never arise.

PropertyGuru_Wannabe

OP needs to learn the landlords obligations, rules, and regulations or else he may never get possession of his property again.  If he can't work out how to do it correctly and needs some help, please seek a solicitor firm that is well versed in these matters and instruct them.

This flowchart may assist.  Be warned, lack of regulation compliance may mean fines and penalties at court.