Tenant not leaving, Failed section 21, Court date

user1977

If the tenants are keen to get an eviction order, why are they now defending the case? Sounds like they've changed their mind.

Herzlos

newsgroupmonkey_ said:
Because they won't get council accommodation that way. People play the system to get a council flat.
It doesn't always work out, because they could end up in a B&B or homeless hostel.

It's not that they are playing the system as such, it's just the system is set up such that they won't get any accommodation help from the council until they've been evicted. The council could start trying to sort something from when the S21 is served but would rather ignore the problem until the bailiffs are at the door.


I suspect the tenants are 'fighting' it so that the council won't accuse them of trying to game the system that the council insists on playing.

user1977

Herzlos said:

newsgroupmonkey_ said:
Because they won't get council accommodation that way. People play the system to get a council flat.
It doesn't always work out, because they could end up in a B&B or homeless hostel.

I suspect the tenants are 'fighting' it so that the council won't accuse them of trying to game the system that the council insists on playing.

Possible, but it hardly helps the tenants! An eviction order is an eviction order, I don't think the council are in a position to second-guess whether the tribunal came to the right decision.

RHemmings

wackyjoe332 said:

Thanks for the responses, they are great Ok here's a bullet point of the scenario as requested. 

1- Tenant moved in via letting agent - 12/06/2017 

2- Letting agent passed away and agency closed 01-12-2018 

3- I gave the current tenant a AST from 14-12-2018 and has not been renewed since.

4- April 2024, I decide I want to renovate the flat , new kitchen, bathroom, doors, windows and a complete new roof and move into the property myself, and I issued them a section 21 notice on 1st May 24.

5- When I researched how to issue a section 21, it stated we needed a GSC with the current tenancy and for any prev tenancies. I did not have a copy of the GSC from 2017 so I decided if I create a new tenancy and state the tenants have only been here for 1 year and provide the GSC relevant to this to submit the sec 21 , I would not need to show all previous ones. , hence I 'regretfully' created a new AST backdated from  Feb 23 - Feb 24 and submit this with the GSC for that period.

6- The tenant agreed as they wanted a council property and wanted to be given section 21,  but when the defence form came they filled it out and said everything I wrote about their tenancies was incorrect and they been there since 2017 after getting advice from the local housing officer. 

7- The court stated that the dates of what I wrote and the tenant defence form did not match and wanted to hold a hearing in August. Now section 21 will clearly not work either way now regardless of going to the hearing as I wont be able to get all the GSC since 2017, especially the one the letting agent provided in 2017 as I dont know who he used. 

8-  Do I need to attend the court hearing, they will 99% reject the claim if no GSC is provided I guess? Is it worth avoiding it and then submit a section 8 a few weeks after? 

9-  The decisions I made above, and to not seek legal help was my mistake , I want to find any solution now to get the tenants out. Section 21 has completely failed now, so if I can go down the section 8 route, what steps do I need to take and what grounds do I submit it on.

All help is very much appreciated, thanks for the replies! 

You haven't given the date of the GSC in 2017. Did you get it before the tenancy started, or after? 

_Penny_Dreadful

wackyjoe332 said:

newsgroupmonkey_ said:

I'm going to throw an "out there" comment.
I get the impression that the tenants aren't in any way being a problem to you - in fact, they want to get evicted properly.

If you're sure you got a GSC back in 2017, have you asked them if they have a copy?
As a tenant, I always kept the copies given to me of the GSC.

Tenants had months to look for another accommodation why can’t they just leave if there not being a problem? Does every tenant want landlords to evict them every time they need to move. 

Why do so many landlords find it difficult to issue a valid section 21 notice?

_Penny_Dreadful

user1977 said:

If the tenants are keen to get an eviction order, why are they now defending the case? Sounds like they've changed their mind.

It's not necessarily that the tenants have changed their mind.  The OP said the tenants received advice from the local housing officer so I think what has happened is that the tenants have received a section 21, gone to the council as they want social housing and the council is now helping the tenants defend the invalid section 21 which the tenants have to go along with or no social housing for them.

saajan_12

wackyjoe332 said:

saajan_12 said:

wackyjoe332 said:

Thanks for the responses, they are great Ok here's a bullet point of the scenario as requested. 

1- Tenant moved in via letting agent - 12/06/2017 

2- Letting agent passed away and agency closed 01-12-2018 

3- I gave the current tenant a AST from 14-12-2018 and has not been renewed since.

4- April 2024, I decide I want to renovate the flat , new kitchen, bathroom, doors, windows and a complete new roof and move into the property myself, and I issued them a section 21 notice on 1st May 24.

5- When I researched how to issue a section 21, it stated we needed a GSC with the current tenancy and for any prev tenancies. I did not have a copy of the GSC from 2017 so I decided if I create a new tenancy and state the tenants have only been here for 1 year and provide the GSC relevant to this to submit the sec 21 , I would not need to show all previous ones. , hence I 'regretfully' created a new AST backdated from  Feb 23 - Feb 24 and submit this with the GSC for that period.

6- The tenant agreed as they wanted a council property and wanted to be given section 21,  but when the defence form came they filled it out and said everything I wrote about their tenancies was incorrect and they been there since 2017 after getting advice from the local housing officer. 

7- The court stated that the dates of what I wrote and the tenant defence form did not match and wanted to hold a hearing in August. Now section 21 will clearly not work either way now regardless of going to the hearing as I wont be able to get all the GSC since 2017, especially the one the letting agent provided in 2017 as I dont know who he used. 

8-  Do I need to attend the court hearing, they will 99% reject the claim if no GSC is provided I guess? Is it worth avoiding it and then submit a section 8 a few weeks after? 

9-  The decisions I made above, and to not seek legal help was my mistake , I want to find any solution now to get the tenants out. Section 21 has completely failed now, so if I can go down the section 8 route, what steps do I need to take and what grounds do I submit it on.

All help is very much appreciated, thanks for the replies! 

Not necessarily. You would need to be honest on what the actual dates were ie 2017. No need to mention the GSC unless they actually ask for it. There's 82 requirements, they don't routinely examine each one, just if there's a question raised about it. 

Alternatively if you're not going to attend the hearing then no point on losing the time.. withdraw the claim and send the tenant the new notice now. You could send both S21 (with correct dates) and S8 (ground 1) at the same time, to give yourself a fallback. 

This seems like the best plan. Do you know how I will have to withdraw the claim? Also would I serve section 8 under the original tenancy and not the new one I created ? 

What documents are needed for a valid section 8 under grounds 1

thanks 

You haven't created a new tenancy. You agreed a new fixed term, within the single tenancy from 2017. You need to get your head around this before making further rash decisions. 

I would strongly urge serving both notices if you intend to start again. With a S8 G1 the judge MAY ask for proof you actually did / plan to live there if this is questioned. With a S21, the judge MAY ask for proof of the GSC among other things. Or they may not.. better to keep options open. 

KxMx

Herzlos said:

newsgroupmonkey_ said:
Because they won't get council accommodation that way. People play the system to get a council flat.
It doesn't always work out, because they could end up in a B&B or homeless hostel.

It's not that they are playing the system as such, it's just the system is set up such that they won't get any accommodation help from the council until they've been evicted. The council could start trying to sort something from when the S21 is served but would rather ignore the problem until the bailiffs are at the door.


I suspect the tenants are 'fighting' it so that the council won't accuse them of trying to game the system that the council insists on playing.

The Council don't have the resources to adequately help all those who are already homeless.
So they simply have nothing left to offer those at risk of homelessness. 

Herzlos

KxMx said:

Herzlos said:

newsgroupmonkey_ said:
Because they won't get council accommodation that way. People play the system to get a council flat.
It doesn't always work out, because they could end up in a B&B or homeless hostel.

It's not that they are playing the system as such, it's just the system is set up such that they won't get any accommodation help from the council until they've been evicted. The council could start trying to sort something from when the S21 is served but would rather ignore the problem until the bailiffs are at the door.


I suspect the tenants are 'fighting' it so that the council won't accuse them of trying to game the system that the council insists on playing.

The Council don't have the resources to adequately help all those who are already homeless.
So they simply have nothing left to offer those at risk of homelessness. 

That's definitely a problem that should have been addressed a long time ago.

I'm just not convinced waiting until the last minute helps anyone - it then means more expensive emergency accomodation options for instance. Surely it'd be cheaper for the council to help the tenants find a new rental before needing to put them up in a hotel?

But it seems everything is set up to wait for the obviously arriving crisis to happen before intervening.

Not that any of that is relevant here. My point was that the tenant doesn't have any choice in the matter here, this is just the way it's done.

wackyjoe332

saajan_12 said:

wackyjoe332 said:

saajan_12 said:

wackyjoe332 said:

Thanks for the responses, they are great Ok here's a bullet point of the scenario as requested. 

1- Tenant moved in via letting agent - 12/06/2017 

2- Letting agent passed away and agency closed 01-12-2018 

3- I gave the current tenant a AST from 14-12-2018 and has not been renewed since.

4- April 2024, I decide I want to renovate the flat , new kitchen, bathroom, doors, windows and a complete new roof and move into the property myself, and I issued them a section 21 notice on 1st May 24.

5- When I researched how to issue a section 21, it stated we needed a GSC with the current tenancy and for any prev tenancies. I did not have a copy of the GSC from 2017 so I decided if I create a new tenancy and state the tenants have only been here for 1 year and provide the GSC relevant to this to submit the sec 21 , I would not need to show all previous ones. , hence I 'regretfully' created a new AST backdated from  Feb 23 - Feb 24 and submit this with the GSC for that period.

6- The tenant agreed as they wanted a council property and wanted to be given section 21,  but when the defence form came they filled it out and said everything I wrote about their tenancies was incorrect and they been there since 2017 after getting advice from the local housing officer. 

7- The court stated that the dates of what I wrote and the tenant defence form did not match and wanted to hold a hearing in August. Now section 21 will clearly not work either way now regardless of going to the hearing as I wont be able to get all the GSC since 2017, especially the one the letting agent provided in 2017 as I dont know who he used. 

8-  Do I need to attend the court hearing, they will 99% reject the claim if no GSC is provided I guess? Is it worth avoiding it and then submit a section 8 a few weeks after? 

9-  The decisions I made above, and to not seek legal help was my mistake , I want to find any solution now to get the tenants out. Section 21 has completely failed now, so if I can go down the section 8 route, what steps do I need to take and what grounds do I submit it on.

All help is very much appreciated, thanks for the replies! 

Not necessarily. You would need to be honest on what the actual dates were ie 2017. No need to mention the GSC unless they actually ask for it. There's 82 requirements, they don't routinely examine each one, just if there's a question raised about it. 

Alternatively if you're not going to attend the hearing then no point on losing the time.. withdraw the claim and send the tenant the new notice now. You could send both S21 (with correct dates) and S8 (ground 1) at the same time, to give yourself a fallback. 

This seems like the best plan. Do you know how I will have to withdraw the claim? Also would I serve section 8 under the original tenancy and not the new one I created ? 

What documents are needed for a valid section 8 under grounds 1

thanks 

You haven't created a new tenancy. You agreed a new fixed term, within the single tenancy from 2017. You need to get your head around this before making further rash decisions. 

I would strongly urge serving both notices if you intend to start again. With a S8 G1 the judge MAY ask for proof you actually did / plan to live there if this is questioned. With a S21, the judge MAY ask for proof of the GSC among other things. Or they may not.. better to keep options open. 

Yes so the new fixed term ended in Feb 24 so that’s now expired. 

So I need to 
1- withdraw the current section 21 & cancel hearing date somehow.  it it aside , so now how do I get this withdrawn? 

2- submit a section 8 on grounds 1 . What documents will I need to submit this now? 

3- I am not able to get the GSC from 2017 so section 21 route wont work I guess ? To service  valid section 21, do we have to provide all GSC during the time the tenants lived there , or just the first one when they moved in? 

Thanks  !