£50 in the bin quite literally

sheramber

stu12345_2 said:

leaving it outside is allowed as long as permission is granted in advance!!

that's my point, couriers and even royal mail drivers, postmen  taken it on them to guess what to do, when they know the rules, and they can see no special instruction are in place for that delivery 

No permission given in advance.

Undervalued

FlaatusGoat said:

Ah so it's my fault the delivery was put in the bin. I loved reading the Olympic level mental gymnastics needed to reach that conclusion.

Well it is your fault that you ordered an item that was likely to be delivered when you were away and made no arrangements regarding a safe place or delivery to a neighbour!

Your claim is against the company that supplied the goods. If you take them to court and they can't convince the judge that "on the balance of probabilities" the item  reached your possession, you will likely win and they will be ordered to reimburse you for the item and the court fee.

How much is involved and is it worth it? 

Exodi

Undervalued said:

FlaatusGoat said:

Ah so it's my fault the delivery was put in the bin. I loved reading the Olympic level mental gymnastics needed to reach that conclusion.

Well it is your fault that you ordered an item that was likely to be delivered when you were away and made no arrangements regarding a safe place or delivery to a neighbour!

Your claim is against the company that supplied the goods. If you take them to court and they can't convince the judge that "on the balance of probabilities" the item  reached your possession, you will likely win and they will be ordered to reimburse you for the item and the court fee.

How much is involved and is it worth it? 

£50 (thread title).

I would just reinforce that this isn't a BW or Evri problem - virtually every courier that delivers to me leaves parcels on my doorstep, round the side and occasionally (usually when it's raining) in one of the bins, with a note about it through the door.

It wouldn't matter if you ordered Creatine from BW or MyProtein or Amazon, there's no reason to think the result wouldn't have been the same.

That said I've never had a parcel delivered to someone elses bin as suggested in this thread. Nor has it happened while my bin is at the end of my drive for bin day.

Undervalued

Exodi said:

Undervalued said:

FlaatusGoat said:

Ah so it's my fault the delivery was put in the bin. I loved reading the Olympic level mental gymnastics needed to reach that conclusion.

Well it is your fault that you ordered an item that was likely to be delivered when you were away and made no arrangements regarding a safe place or delivery to a neighbour!

Your claim is against the company that supplied the goods. If you take them to court and they can't convince the judge that "on the balance of probabilities" the item  reached your possession, you will likely win and they will be ordered to reimburse you for the item and the court fee.

How much is involved and is it worth it? 

£50 (thread title).

I would just reinforce that this isn't a BW or Evri problem - virtually every courier that delivers to me leaves parcels on my doorstep, round the side and occasionally (usually when it's raining) in one of the bins, with a note about it through the door.

It wouldn't matter if you ordered Creatine from BW or MyProtein or Amazon, there's no reason to think the result wouldn't have been the same.

That said I've never had a parcel delivered to someone elses bin as suggested in this thread. Nor has it happened while my bin is at the end of my drive for bin day.

One of the regulars on this forum will delight in pointing out that the legislation requires the item to be delivered to the personal possession of the buyer! As far as I am aware there has never been a test case in a high enough court to set a precedent about what constitutes this.

In practice it never happens! Before the proliferation of "couriers" even the (then) good old trusted Royal Mail's premium Registered / Special Delivery only guaranteed delivery to an address, not a person. Plus there is no legal requirement to have any form of ID, so how could any courier be certain of who they handed the item to?

The whole area is a mess. Everybody wants their items NOW, yet also wants the lowest possible delivery charge. 95% of the time it works OK(ish) but sometimes it doesn't. By and large the law protects the consumer and we all end up paying for that!

Rant over!

Ergates

stu12345_2 said:

I think private couriers are getting lazy

It's not a matter of laziness, it's a matter of what is most convenient for most people most of the time.

The vast majority of the time, a parcel left tucked by the bins, or in an (empty) bin, or under the porch, or wherever, it far more convenient for the recipient that having to go to the local sorting office.  It suits the couriers - as it means they don't have to make return trips.  It suits the customers as it means they got their order when they get home.  It suits the retailers as it keeps courier costs down.

Sometimes, as here, it goes wrong.  When this happens, the risk should be borne by the retailer - as it's part of the costs of doing business.  

Skiddaw1

I think it all depends on where you live. In our village couriers regularly leave parcels on doorsteps/in greenhouses/behind shed/in bin store, etc, and the postie quite frequently opens the front door to leave parcels on the doormat if we're not about to answer the door. If parcels are wrongly delivered they always find their way to the right person. It wouldn't work in most urban areas obviously.

Okell

Undervalued said:

Exodi said:

Undervalued said:

FlaatusGoat said:

Ah so it's my fault the delivery was put in the bin. I loved reading the Olympic level mental gymnastics needed to reach that conclusion.

Well it is your fault that you ordered an item that was likely to be delivered when you were away and made no arrangements regarding a safe place or delivery to a neighbour!

Your claim is against the company that supplied the goods. If you take them to court and they can't convince the judge that "on the balance of probabilities" the item  reached your possession, you will likely win and they will be ordered to reimburse you for the item and the court fee.

How much is involved and is it worth it? 

£50 (thread title).

I would just reinforce that this isn't a BW or Evri problem - virtually every courier that delivers to me leaves parcels on my doorstep, round the side and occasionally (usually when it's raining) in one of the bins, with a note about it through the door.

It wouldn't matter if you ordered Creatine from BW or MyProtein or Amazon, there's no reason to think the result wouldn't have been the same.

That said I've never had a parcel delivered to someone elses bin as suggested in this thread. Nor has it happened while my bin is at the end of my drive for bin day.

One of the regulars on this forum will delight in pointing out that the legislation requires the item to be delivered to the personal possession of the buyer! As far as I am aware there has never been a test case in a high enough court to set a precedent about what constitutes this.

In practice it never happens! Before the proliferation of "couriers" even the (then) good old trusted Royal Mail's premium Registered / Special Delivery only guaranteed delivery to an address, not a person. Plus there is no legal requirement to have any form of ID, so how could any courier be certain of who they handed the item to?

The whole area is a mess. Everybody wants their items NOW, yet also wants the lowest possible delivery charge. 95% of the time it works OK(ish) but sometimes it doesn't. By and large the law protects the consumer and we all end up paying for that!

Rant over!

The relevant wording of the legislation is:

"29 Passing of risk

(1) A sales contract is to be treated as including the following provisions as terms.

(2) The goods remain at the trader's risk until they come into the physical possession of—

(a) the consumer, or

(b) a person identified by the consumer to take possession of the goods."

My understanding of what the courts do when they (try to) decide what Parliament intended when passing a particular piece of legislation  is to look at the plain and ordinary meaning of the words used.  They'll only go beyond this if the plain and ordinary meaning of the words would lead to manifest absurdity or the result would be contrary to public policy.

Seems to me that the meaning of the phrase "come into the physical possession" is pretty clear in this case.  The OP has said that the photos taken by Evri show the package in a bin.  I don't think anyone could argue that leaving the package in a bin (or unattended on a doorstep for that matter) does not satisfy the requirement to deliver the goods into the consumer's "physical possession".  (The fact that the OP was absent is neither here nor there).

I don't think a small claims court judge would come to the conclusion that they knew better than the legislature and that when they said "physical possession" they actually meant something completely different.

One of the features of both the CRA and the CCR is that they weren't designed to be fair or to create a level playing field.  They're purposefully drafted to be in the consumer's favour and not the trader's.  they aren't meant to be fair.  If traders don't like that they should lobby Parliament to make the law fairer.

What royal Mail and other couriers used to do is irrelevant.  Although I think it would be better if we did go back in time so that when a delivery fails because the addressee is not at home, they have to go off to some depot to collect the item themself.

Ergates

Okell said:
 Although I think it would be better if we did go back in time so that when a delivery fails because the addressee is not at home, they have to go off to some depot to collect the item themself.

I very much disagree on this - it would defeat a big benefit of ordering online.

The current situation - when applied according to the law - parcels get left somewhere sensible (when that is an option),  and on the rare occasion they go missing the retailer/courier foots the bill - suits me (and, I believe, most people) fine.

Obviously there are occasions when this isn't workable - e.g. if you ordered a new TV, then leaving it on the doorstep would be silly.

stu12345_2

like I said the boss at the Royal mail sorting office threatened to involve the police when I handed a parcel to what I thought was the customer, but was not.it was the customers husband who had been chucked out the house the night before.
they waited at the front door of the house,pretended to unlock the door of the home when they saw me arrive, they said thanks for the parcel.

I got back to sorting office all hell kicked off. i was getting hit with all the rules about wrongly giving out mail in the street, not behind a front door once opened which is the correct way
the item was valuable and the customer sued the royal mail. i almost lost my job

screech_78

Royal Mail never leave parcels around here. I wish they would! 

If im not in when a RM parcel is delivered, a card is put through the letterbox telling you to rearrange delivery or collect from the local sorting office (which isn’t actually that local).