Cash withdrawn from my account in branch by thief!

Mrcsmrs

sheramber said:

It’s also highly unlikely it’s been compromised from a chip and pin terminal or a cash machine as I just don’t use them.

But you used in February. Why do you think it could not have happened then?

No doubt it akes time to produce the cloned card and they probably sell it on so there will be a delay before such a card is used.

But there is not much to be served by trying to answer questions that only Nationwide can answer.

The chances if you ever knowing what or how it happened are probably very slim.

You’re right, it could’ve happened in February, but I used my usual bank card to withdraw cash at the same time as I needed more than the daily limit from either card, and nothing has yet happened with my other card. Though that doesn’t mean it won’t I suppose!  

I just keep coming back to how very odd that it was used in my old home town and I suppose I was hoping someone would say, oh yes, I’ve heard of that, they did it this way and have an explanation! Not very likely apparently but it was worth a try! 

Ergates

DE_612183 said:

Ergates said:

DE_612183 said:

Ergates said:

Mrcsmrs said:

Plus I honestly can’t see the police doing anything about such a big organisation not refunding me £77. I hope I’m wrong but it doesn’t seem like it’s going to be anyone’s priority, except mine! 

The police certainly wouldn't do anything about that.   But not because it's only £77 or because Nationwide are a large organisation - because it would be a civil matter.  The only reason Nationwide would not refund you the money is if they conclude that it was you who withdrew it.  If they do this then the next step will be to raise a formal complaint with them.  If this doesn't work, then the next step after that would be the FOS.  At no point would Nationwide not refunding you become a police matter.

Why is theft or fraud not a criminal matter?

The theft/fraud would be - Nationwide deciding it isn't theft/fraud and not refunding the money wouldn't be.  That would be a civil matter between OP and Nationwide.

Unless you're suggesting that Nationwide have stolen OP's money?

No, but if the OP is left out of pocket by £77 by no fault of their own - then that is either theft or fraud.

Theft or fraud by the person who perpetrated it - which wasn't Nationwide, so the police will not get involved in any dispute between OP and Nationwide because *that* is not a police matter.   The police do not enforce civil contracts.

If your car got stolen - that is theft and a police matter.   If the insurance company refused to pay you for some bogus reason - that is a civil matter.   The police will get involved in the matter of the theft (probably just to record it these days), but they will not get involved in the dispute between you and the insurance company.  Same principal.

Ergates

Mrcsmrs said:

AstonSmith said:

Question for anyone: is it possible to program a stolen card number (e.g. leaked online) onto the magnetic strip of a card? What if someone did that, and damaged the chip so it forced the bank to swipe the card and signature (no PIN)?

I don't understand how it could be a mis-keying, but I've never worked in a bank. Wouldn't the account details populate on the screen from the information on the card? What key(s) could be pressed to accidentally switch to someone else's account without some sort of authentication? It doesn't make sense.

Thank you, that is exactly my thought on the matter. Surely the card provided the account details so how could the staff member have keyed anything that changed the account details? 

I believe it is possible to add details to a fake card that way, isn’t that how cloned cards work? Someone else has said that it’s too costly to add contactless functionality but surely this happens with cloned cards so they can be used in stores? 

That would depend on how their store fronts are set up and what the card readers do etc.

e.g.:  *Maybe* the card reader isn't actually linked to the software they used to carry out the transaction at the desk.  *Maybe* it just displays a number on the screen that the staff member then has to type into the transaction screen.   Whilst this may sound odd - remember that a lot of the core transaction processing systems that the banks and building societies depend on was originally written in the 70s/80s, and different bits and bobs aren't necessarily integrated as seamlessly as you might expect.

This is all speculation however - I don't have any idea how Nationwide's branch systems work.   Hopefully their investigations will reveal what happened.

DE_612183

Ergates said:

DE_612183 said:

Ergates said:

DE_612183 said:

Ergates said:

Mrcsmrs said:

Plus I honestly can’t see the police doing anything about such a big organisation not refunding me £77. I hope I’m wrong but it doesn’t seem like it’s going to be anyone’s priority, except mine! 

The police certainly wouldn't do anything about that.   But not because it's only £77 or because Nationwide are a large organisation - because it would be a civil matter.  The only reason Nationwide would not refund you the money is if they conclude that it was you who withdrew it.  If they do this then the next step will be to raise a formal complaint with them.  If this doesn't work, then the next step after that would be the FOS.  At no point would Nationwide not refunding you become a police matter.

Why is theft or fraud not a criminal matter?

The theft/fraud would be - Nationwide deciding it isn't theft/fraud and not refunding the money wouldn't be.  That would be a civil matter between OP and Nationwide.

Unless you're suggesting that Nationwide have stolen OP's money?

No, but if the OP is left out of pocket by £77 by no fault of their own - then that is either theft or fraud.

Theft or fraud by the person who perpetrated it - which wasn't Nationwide, so the police will not get involved in any dispute between OP and Nationwide because *that* is not a police matter.   The police do not enforce civil contracts.

If your car got stolen - that is theft and a police matter.   If the insurance company refused to pay you for some bogus reason - that is a civil matter.   The police will get involved in the matter of the theft (probably just to record it these days), but they will not get involved in the dispute between you and the insurance company.  Same principal.

I agree they won't get involved in a dispute between her and Nationwide - But her money has been stolen. Somebody has taken it by unfair means out of her bank account.

If nationwide admid they are responsible but won't pay - then thats civil.
If nationwide say it's not their fault and have done nothing wrong - surely it's up to the police to investiage who has taken the money.

Definition of stealing - the action or offence of taking another person's property without permission or legal right and without intending to return it; theft.

I think we are saying the same thing but somehow disagreeing!

masonic

Mrcsmrs said:

 I just keep coming back to how very odd that it was used in my old home town and I suppose I was hoping someone would say, oh yes, I’ve heard of that, they did it this way and have an explanation! Not very likely apparently but it was worth a try! 

It points the finger more towards someone who lives in the area, but beside that it isn't much help.

Ergates

DE_612183 said:

I agree they won't get involved in a dispute between her and Nationwide

Which is what I said.

If Nationwide say "It wasn't theft, and it's not our fault and we're not refunding the money" then it is extremely unlikely the police will do anything other than take Nationwide's word for it.  But of all the outcomes that seems least likely.

born_again

DE_612183 said:

I agree they won't get involved in a dispute between her and Nationwide - But her money has been stolen. Somebody has taken it by unfair means out of her bank account.

If nationwide admid they are responsible but won't pay - then thats civil.
If nationwide say it's not their fault and have done nothing wrong - surely it's up to the police to investiage who has taken the money.

Definition of stealing - the action or offence of taking another person's property without permission or legal right and without intending to return it; theft.

I think we are saying the same thing but somehow disagreeing!

You would like to think so. But all the police will do is say report to Action Fraud, Who do not investigate anything. More likely that police would also say up to the bank to report.

You would have to be really lucky if reporting to a local police station to drop on a officer who would take the time to look at it. As the amount of paperwork to simple request CCTV is massive. Which would be the only way that they would have any hope of getting a image of the person & then hoping that they have a record & are know to them.

Mrcsmrs

Little update as I’ve been a bit busy the last few days. 

Nationwide refunded me the money on Thursday last week. They didn’t tell me they’d done this but I’ve been checking the account very often and saw it in there. I then got a call from the branch manager of the town I used to live in, apologising that my money had been handed over. Not surprisingly she couldn’t say much more than that but clearly wanted to make contact and tell me that they are still investigating. The only thing she told me of any real value was that it was a card matching mine that was swiped. So no miskeying error.  I suspect this was because I did make a complaint last week but as I pointed out to her in the phone, my complaint isn’t against the member of staff who handed my money over, provided that they were following procedure, my complaint is that their procedure allowed this to be possible, and then the total lack of any contact whatsoever until she called me, which would appear to be out of the ordinary. 

I’ve never even had an email confirming that I’ve made a report. Literally the only contact I’ve had was a text telling me it would take longer, which isn’t good enough. Banks make us jump through hoops to get our own money but can’t even send an automated email to say the investigation is ongoing after a week? I seriously doubt that they would let me ignore them for a week or more if they needed me to do something. After all this I really do totally understand why some people choose to hide their money under their mattress. 

sausage_time

Were you offered compensation?  You have clearly spend a lot of time chasing up their error.

Mrcsmrs

sausage_time said:

Were you offered compensation?  You have clearly spend a lot of time chasing up their error.

Nothing as yet, but they are apparently still investigating so I don’t imagine they’ll do anything about that until they’re done. I had intended to travel back to the town the next day to go into the branch and speak to the manager, no idea if it would’ve done any good, but I’d planned to. The call saved me the bother so that at least was good.