ECP DCB LEGAL court claim 2025

Harmonyguru

Hi everyone,

A little update. I've had a response to my POPLA appeal from ECP.

Nothing I didn't expect, generic copy and paste jargon. I am surprised they didn't even try to address the issues I raised with their machines and operating system and the fact there was no way to pay for the correct time I had stayed there for. To clarify there is no dispute on what time I arrived and left, only that the operators system failed to allow the driver to pay for the correct time. I have 5 days left to respond to their comments. If anyone could please take a quick read through (I've only attached the response to my appeal for times sake) I'd really appreciate any advice.

Thanks!

fisherjim

In spite of all that bumf and technical jargon which I take with a pinch of salt, and indeed all the stuff about signage etc etc that spreadsheet actually works in your favour in my opinion, it states exactly what your receipt confirms on page one:

Transaction time 22:40

Entry Time 22:38

Exit Time 23:38

Charge £3.00 

Conversely we know their anpr states you entered at 17:51 and the exit time was 22:43.

So in spite of all their BS about how wonderful their anpr / charging system is there is definitely a discrepancy between the two.

In fact the transaction time corresponds to the exit time allowing for 3 minutes, but not the entry/exit time which look to be for a different vehicle all together, if the VRN records all are the same on all the records how can this be? 

They haven't addressed this at all, just spouted rubbish to bamboozle POPLA (which is not hard) it needs spelling out simply to POPLA which I hope you did.

But in essence that very record they have highlighted and they are relying on actually shows a hour was paid for and the vehicle was on site for exactly an hour.

What a bag of doo doo!

Gr1pr

Let us see your draft proposals for your Popla comments 

Find the things that help your case, and ones that rubbish their case, especially what Jim said above 

Coupon-mad

LDast said:

The OP has already been advised elsewhere about this. They have identified themself to be the driver so there is no point in looking for non compliance with PoFA.

The following was suggested as your main point of appeal to POPLA:

The car park operates as a Pay on Exit facility in the following manner:

1. When a car enters the car park, its Vehicle Registration Mark (VRM) and entry time are recorded automatically.

1. Upon exiting, the driver must enter their VRM. The system calculates the payment due, which is displayed on a screen.

1. After the payment is made, the barriers rise, allowing the vehicle to exit.

The driver only needs to enter their VRM; no other input is required, and the payment amount cannot be altered by the driver.

Although a tariff board is displayed, it serves only as information. The driver is required to pay the amount calculated by the check-out system and cannot estimate the charge based on the tariff.
In this case, the driver entered their correct VRM upon exit and paid the amount demanded by the system. The creditor does not dispute these facts.

However, the keeper later received a Parking Charge Notice (PCN) alleging that the driver did not pay the correct tariff for their time on site due to a system error in calculating the amount due. The specific times and tariffs are included in the creditor's evidence, but the issue at hand is one of principle and accountability, not details.

In summary, the creditor seeks to impose a parking charge due to a failure in their own system. I argue that, as a matter of law, common sense, and fairness, this appeal should be upheld.

The above should be your main comment.

You will probably lose this POPLA appeal, just so you know. Could be wrong (hope so, as it's easier for you if you win this early in the scam process) but I don't think the useless POPLA Assessor 'kids' will get it that paying on exit based on the above system means no action by you caused a PCN.

Ignore POPLA of course, if I'm right.

Harmonyguru

fisherjim said:

In spite of all that bumf and technical jargon which I take with a pinch of salt, and indeed all the stuff about signage etc etc that spreadsheet actually works in your favour in my opinion, it states exactly what your receipt confirms on page one:

Transaction time 22:40

Entry Time 22:38

Exit Time 23:38

Charge £3.00 

Conversely we know their anpr states you entered at 17:51 and the exit time was 22:43.

So in spite of all their BS about how wonderful their anpr / charging system is there is definitely a discrepancy between the two.

In fact the transaction time corresponds to the exit time allowing for 3 minutes, but not the entry/exit time which look to be for a different vehicle all together, if the VRN records all are the same on all the records how can this be? 

They haven't addressed this at all, just spouted rubbish to bamboozle POPLA (which is not hard) it needs spelling out simply to POPLA which I hope you did.

But in essence that very record they have highlighted and they are relying on actually shows a hour was paid for and the vehicle was on site for exactly an hour.

What a bag of doo doo!

Amazing spot there, it's ridiculous isn't it? With the spreadsheet they've essentially shot themselves in the foot. The only thing I'm not 100% certain of is your comment 'the entry/exit time which look to be for a different vehicle all together' where have you seen this on their response?

fisherjim

Harmonyguru said:

fisherjim said:

In spite of all that bumf and technical jargon which I take with a pinch of salt, and indeed all the stuff about signage etc etc that spreadsheet actually works in your favour in my opinion, it states exactly what your receipt confirms on page one:

Transaction time 22:40

Entry Time 22:38

Exit Time 23:38

Charge £3.00 

Conversely we know their anpr states you entered at 17:51 and the exit time was 22:43.

So in spite of all their BS about how wonderful their anpr / charging system is there is definitely a discrepancy between the two.

In fact the transaction time corresponds to the exit time allowing for 3 minutes, but not the entry/exit time which look to be for a different vehicle all together, if the VRN records all are the same on all the records how can this be? 

They haven't addressed this at all, just spouted rubbish to bamboozle POPLA (which is not hard) it needs spelling out simply to POPLA which I hope you did.

But in essence that very record they have highlighted and they are relying on actually shows a hour was paid for and the vehicle was on site for exactly an hour.

What a bag of doo doo!

Amazing spot there, it's ridiculous isn't it? With the spreadsheet they've essentially shot themselves in the foot. The only thing I'm not 100% certain of is your comment 'the entry/exit time which look to be for a different vehicle all together' where have you seen this on their response?

Sorry I will try to explain my train of thought; as the entry and exit times on ANPR are completely different to the entry and exit times on the pay terminal / spreadsheet / your receipt, it's like the system assigned a different vehicle record, I wasn't saying it shows a different VRN anywhere.

The Muppets won't acknowledge it or reference it in their evidence because that would admit that their system is fallible and of course all that gobbledygook they quote is there to try to convince that it is perfect.

They state in their evidence that the ANPR "equipment at this site is approved for use by Home Office Guidelines" none of those guidelines mention car parks, or making charges as a result of it's use, that statement it just to mislead POPLA. There are no technical standards for ANPR equipment in private car parks.

You could call them out for evidence of the last time it was audited for compliance  to the guidelines they quote. Here are the documents which are nothing to do with car parks as the law prevents the use of ANPR in car parks LOL:

NASP Guidlines:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/664487a7bd01f5ed32793baa/NASPLE_3.2.pdf

Audit Guidlines:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5f4f74408fa8f523fc74cf52/ANPR_Compliance_and_Audit_Standards_v2.0_September_2020.pdf

All they are doing is using smoke and mirrors to hide the fact their system glitched, they would have been better of saying we are cancelling the charge as an act of good will, anyone with a brain can see they are in a hole.

Coupon-mad

Don't over-complicate POPLA Comments.

As already advised, the above summary from LDast should be the crux of your comment.

Harmonyguru

Coupon-mad said:

LDast said:

The OP has already been advised elsewhere about this. They have identified themself to be the driver so there is no point in looking for non compliance with PoFA.

The following was suggested as your main point of appeal to POPLA:

The car park operates as a Pay on Exit facility in the following manner:

1. When a car enters the car park, its Vehicle Registration Mark (VRM) and entry time are recorded automatically.

1. Upon exiting, the driver must enter their VRM. The system calculates the payment due, which is displayed on a screen.

1. After the payment is made, the barriers rise, allowing the vehicle to exit.

The driver only needs to enter their VRM; no other input is required, and the payment amount cannot be altered by the driver.

Although a tariff board is displayed, it serves only as information. The driver is required to pay the amount calculated by the check-out system and cannot estimate the charge based on the tariff.
In this case, the driver entered their correct VRM upon exit and paid the amount demanded by the system. The creditor does not dispute these facts.

However, the keeper later received a Parking Charge Notice (PCN) alleging that the driver did not pay the correct tariff for their time on site due to a system error in calculating the amount due. The specific times and tariffs are included in the creditor's evidence, but the issue at hand is one of principle and accountability, not details.

In summary, the creditor seeks to impose a parking charge due to a failure in their own system. I argue that, as a matter of law, common sense, and fairness, this appeal should be upheld.

The above should be your main comment.

You will probably lose this POPLA appeal, just so you know. Could be wrong (hope so, as it's easier for you if you win this early in the scam process) but I don't think the useless POPLA Assessor 'kids' will get it that paying on exit based on the above system means no action by you caused a PCN.

Ignore POPLA of course, if I'm right.

Hi @Coupon-mad
Yes I did write this as my main comment to POPLA in the initial appeal with some slight tweak just to REALLY lead their noses to it. As soon as I have a draft to respond to their comments I'll post here.

Harmonyguru

Hi everyone,

Here is what I plan to respond to POPLA with. Thank you all so far for your advice. I'm not sure if this needs an ending of some sort? Please advise.

"EURO Car Parks' response fails to adequately address the failures of their systems. The copy of transactions on page 12-13 of their response states exactly what my receipt (exhibit 2 of keepers appeal) confirms:

Transaction time 22:40

Entry Time 22:38

Exit Time 23:38

Charge £3.00 

Moreover, their ANPR system states the vehicle entered at 17:51 and the exit time was 22:43.

It is without question there is a discrepancy between the two. Euro Car Parks has repeatedly made it clear in both their initial appeal rejection and their response that they are a 'Pay on Exit car park. Therefore you are required to pay before LEAVING the car park' (page 3 of ECP response). If this is so, why are the the entry and exit times on ANPR (17:55:41) completely different to the entry and exit times on the pay terminal / spreadsheet / receipt (22:38)?

In fact the transaction time corresponds to the exit time allowing for 3 minutes, but not the entry/exit time which look to be for a different vehicle all together, if the VRN records all are the same on all the records how can this be?

They state in their evidence that the ANPR "equipment at this site is approved for use by Home Office Guidelines". The keeper of this vehicle would like to make it plainly clear that none of these guidelines quoted by EURO Car Parks mention car parks, or making charges as a result. There are no technical standards for ANPR equipment in private car parks.

Coupon-mad

I'd remove the last paragraph because POPLA don't like people accusing ANPR of being inaccurate.  It just doesn't wash with them.

So, I'd stick yo saying that the 'pay on exit' system failed to correctly identify the correct arrival time and this isn't something that the driver can input manually.