ECP DCB LEGAL court claim 2025

Harmonyguru

LDast said:

The address on the NtK is important. If there is any ambiguity in identifying the relevant land then the NtK is not PoFA compliant which would mean that the keeper is not liable. The driver is always liable.

Amazing! Any similar cases you are aware of where I might be able to use similar wording for my appeal?

Harmonyguru

fisherjim said:

Harmonyguru said:

fisherjim said:

So what time did you actually enter the car park 17:55 or 22:38?

This whole sorry thing shows why ANPR is not fit for purpose!

I entered at 17:55 but then when I entered my VRN upon trying to leave it told me I had entered at 22:38 with no way of changing this. The number provided by Euro Car Parks just went to an automated message. A complete mess by the operators.

So it looks quite obvious (and you have documented proof) that the pay machine and the ANPR system clearly had a synchronisation problem at some stage.

ANPR used in car parks is known to have problems authorities are prohibited from using it in car parks, and a PPC put this in black and white to a poster on here recently, listing some of the reasons. 

The BPA have also stated in the past that it is fallible, and even official police authorised equipment is only 95% reliable.

Thanks @fi@fisherjim do you happen to remember where this PPC's post was from? I have my appeal ready but it sounds like it would be worth including some of these reasons for prohibiting ANPR in car parks.

LDast

Harmonyguru said:

LDast said:

The address on the NtK is important. If there is any ambiguity in identifying the relevant land then the NtK is not PoFA compliant which would mean that the keeper is not liable. The driver is always liable.

Amazing! Any similar cases you are aware of where I might be able to use similar wording for my appeal?

It would depend on how ambiguous the location on the NtK is. I note that there is a more detailed address on the back of the NtK that states 60 Bishopsgate Street, B15 1DB.

However, as you ave already identified yourself as the keeper AND the driver, there is nothing you can rely on with regards to PoFA. Had you not identified yourself as the driver, there is the ambiguity of the location noted on the NtK which would have meant that the "relevant land" was not identified and therefore the NtK was not PoFA compliant and therefore they could not hold you liable as the keeper.

When searching Google maps with "Fiveways Birmingham parking" two locations come up, one at 5 Bishopsgate St B15 1EL and one at Tennant Street BD15 1DA. There is ambiguity but irrelevant as you've admitted to being the driver. Have a search through the BPA CoP if there's any merit in chasing it with regards to it but PoFA is dead for you, at this stage.

Harmonyguru

LDast said:

Harmonyguru said:

LDast said:

The address on the NtK is important. If there is any ambiguity in identifying the relevant land then the NtK is not PoFA compliant which would mean that the keeper is not liable. The driver is always liable.

Amazing! Any similar cases you are aware of where I might be able to use similar wording for my appeal?

It would depend on how ambiguous the location on the NtK is. I note that there is a more detailed address on the back of the NtK that states 60 Bishopsgate Street, B15 1DB.

However, as you ave already identified yourself as the keeper AND the driver, there is nothing you can rely on with regards to PoFA. Had you not identified yourself as the driver, there is the ambiguity of the location noted on the NtK which would have meant that the "relevant land" was not identified and therefore the NtK was not PoFA compliant and therefore they could not hold you liable as the keeper.

When searching Google maps with "Fiveways Birmingham parking" two locations come up, one at 5 Bishopsgate St B15 1EL and one at Tennant Street BD15 1DA. There is ambiguity but irrelevant as you've admitted to being the driver. Have a search through the BPA CoP if there's any merit in chasing it with regards to it but PoFA is dead for you, at this stage.

What about if the address of the site is still ambiguous in the reply to my first appeal?

Harmonyguru

Following the advice from @Umkomaas I managed to get a hold of the managing agent acting on behalf of the landowner who said this:

"I understand that you have been in contact regarding incorrect parking charges at Fiveways Leisure, Birmingham. I have been on annual leave so have only just received the message.

You may have already resolved this matter but you will need to contact Euro Car Parks directly as they are in control of the parking tariffs and charges. "

Does this leave me at another dead end or is there any hope here of making a plea?

Coupon-mad

Reply and say that pointless effort has already had a typical private parking (rogue industry) 'auto-rejection' and this is not good enough. Tell them you believe the contract with ECP allows a certain number of PCNs to be cancelled by the client for genuine patrons and you'd like them to do that, please.

fisherjim

Harmonyguru said:

fisherjim said:

Harmonyguru said:

fisherjim said:

So what time did you actually enter the car park 17:55 or 22:38?

This whole sorry thing shows why ANPR is not fit for purpose!

I entered at 17:55 but then when I entered my VRN upon trying to leave it told me I had entered at 22:38 with no way of changing this. The number provided by Euro Car Parks just went to an automated message. A complete mess by the operators.

So it looks quite obvious (and you have documented proof) that the pay machine and the ANPR system clearly had a synchronisation problem at some stage.

ANPR used in car parks is known to have problems authorities are prohibited from using it in car parks, and a PPC put this in black and white to a poster on here recently, listing some of the reasons. 

The BPA have also stated in the past that it is fallible, and even official police authorised equipment is only 95% reliable.

Thanks @fi@fisherjim do you happen to remember where this PPC's post was from? I have my appeal ready but it sounds like it would be worth including some of these reasons for prohibiting ANPR in car parks.

Hi sorry here is a Horizon climb down over ANPR rubbish:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/80810734#Comment_80810734

Harmonyguru

Hi everyone,

Sadly no further response from MAPPS. I want to remain optimistic but also don't want to run out of time for my POPLA appeal. The date on my rejection letter is 24/5/24. I don't want to send my appeal yet in case there is a chance it is cancelled. When is the absolute latest I can submit my appeal to POPLA?

Gr1pr

Day 32 by uploading it as a pdf document to Popla on their website, but perhaps day 30 would be better or safer. ?

So calculate it from the rejection letter date 

Coupon-mad

No; day 33 is the last day and perfectly safe.