Upgrade old Night storage heaters, come off E7 and get "German" electric storage, or back to Gas

Gerry1

Make sure you're using the old NSHs correctly.

https://youtu.be/UeB3Xf_qKvA

QrizB

MattNev said:

Again, I apologise for rehashing an old debate, there are clearly interesting and clear opinions on both sides of the electrical heating debate.

I think we're all in agreement that "German" electrical heaters are a terrible idea, though.

I can see arguments in favour of gas (£6-7k to install, cheap to run), or electric storage heaters (£3-4k to replace the current ones), or heat pumps (£1-10k, depending on exactly what you do), or even basic panel heaters (£1-2k but then full-price electricity). But those "German" heaters are the worst of all worlds; expensive to install and also expensive to run.

MattNev

All the German Heater Companies that have pitched to me claim they are 40-50% more energy efficient than my existing storage heaters and will save me a significant amount over the year.  Are these claims false, or cleverly spun facts to deceive, in much the same we have come to expect from our economic forecasts ?  
I also hate to admit it but I think I would lean more towards NSHs if they weren't so ugly

Gerry1

They're just a pack of lies because daytime electricity costs significantly more than the E7 rates used by NSHs.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=asa+cap+"fischer+future+heat"+upheld&sca_esv=589847838&source=lnt&tbs=ctr:countryUK|countryGB&cr=countryUK|countryGB&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwio9IO_iIiDAxXzV0EAHR0JDnoQpwUIDQ

Spoonie_Turtle

MattNev said:

All the German Heater Companies that have pitched to me claim they are 40-50% more energy efficient than my existing storage heaters and will save me a significant amount over the year.  Are these claims false, or cleverly spun facts to deceive, in much the same we have come to expect from our economic forecasts ?  
I also hate to admit it but I think I would lean more towards NSHs if they weren't so ugly

The claims are false.

I'm no expert but my understanding of it is that electric heating is maximum 100% efficient, 1kWh in for 1kWh out, except heat pumps. 

Old storage heaters seem less efficient because they leak their heat when you don't need it and don't have enough left for when you do.  But the high heat retention ones are insulated so they don't lose all their heat by evening, and only let it out when you set it to.

QrizB

MattNev said:

All the German Heater Companies that have pitched to me claim they are 40-50% more energy efficient than my existing storage heaters and will save me a significant amount over the year.  Are these claims false ...

I'd suggest that "pack of lies" is the most credible explanation.

See for example the first charge on this extensive list:

https://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/news/leicester-news/fischer-future-heat-court-date-7387134

A pre-trial review hearing was held at Leicester Crown Court this morning. The defendants are: Keith and Maria Bastian, both 57 and both of Lutterworth Road, Aylestone, Leicester; Isabelle Bastian, 28, of Sanvey Gate, Leicester city centre; and Graham Nicholls, 71, of Kenwood Road, Knighton, Leicester.

The counts include:

• Fraud by false representation against Fischer Future Heat UK Ltd, which Trading Standards alleged was carried out with the consent or “connivance” of, or was due to the neglect of, the company’s founders Keith and Maria Bastian, and Isabelle Bastian, who worked for the business. Namely:

1. That the consumer would save money on heating their homes by installing and using their heating systems;
2. That their heating systems were a suitable and economical match for the needs of the consumer’s household;
3. That the heaters were capable of storing heat to a more than a minimal degree;
4. That the heaters were suitable replacements for night storage heaters;
5. That the heaters were bespoke, and custom built to the customer’s precise requirements;
6. That the heating systems were compatible, safe and appropriate to be installed using the existing power source and electrical arrangements present in the consumers home.

Criminal charges were eventually dropped, when the defendants reached a deal with Leicester Trading Standards to include:

The undertakings agreed by Mr and Mrs Bastion on behalf of the business and another company called Premier Radiators Ltd, will ensure they do not:

• Describe their heaters as “storage heaters” when turned off without describing the extent to which they stay hot
• Charge call-out fees to customers who have been provided with faulty products
• Fail to ensure a product fits in the space provided as agreed with a customer when they ordered it
• Claim that customers will save money by using their products – unless it is explained that that depends on how it is used and the customer’s electricity tariff
• Claim discounts are only available on the day the salesperson makes an offer
• Claim the companies do not use sub-contractors “when in fact the companies are using sub-contractors”
• Describe salespeople as engineers
• Say that Trading Standards or any other consumer enforcement group has “worked with” or endorsed the companies

The companies must also:

• Conduct spot-checks at management level to ensure its salespeople accurately inform customers of their cancellation rights
• Conduct spot-checks at management level to ensure surveyors are accurate with their assessments
• Make sure if a warranty is “parts only” then any labour charges should be clearly stated in advertising, marketing or sales material

You really should read some of this thread, particularly the last page (if you don't want to wade through all 74).

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/3516223/fischer-storage-heaters/p74

Alnat1

MultiFuelBurner said: 

take advantage of a free heat pump quite for install with £7500 grant from Octopus.

I believe Octopus at the moment are only doing heat pumps if you have existing gas central heating with radiators and plumbing already in place. They are aiming for quick fixes and won't take on homes that require a whole new system

MultiFuelBurner

Alnat1 said:

MultiFuelBurner said: 

take advantage of a free heat pump quite for install with £7500 grant from Octopus.

I believe Octopus at the moment are only doing heat pumps if you have existing gas central heating with radiators and plumbing already in place. They are aiming for quick fixes and won't take on homes that require a whole new system

They are coming to survey one of our rental flats with NSH so will see if they laugh and run away in a couple of weeks time.

Newbie_John

MattNev said:

Newbie_John 
I have just bought the flat so have no idea what the cost will be, I am more familiar with heating a house with Gas central heating so this is all new to me.
During the week I will be out at work from about 8.30am to 6 or 7pm, weekends will be very variable but Im sure I will be in a fair amount of the time.
And who knows how long I will stay here, time has a habit of getting away, at least 5 years, and even if I move out I think i would keep it to rent.

I was just asking as we're quite in similar situation really.
We've moved to a house running on E7 and "storage heaters" (which were missing), it didn't matter much in the past as electricity was cheap but bills for the last two years got us wondering. I'm home either all day or not till 7pm.

I considered 3 options:
a) Heat pump - most expensive, set up of around £15k as we have no radiators - so it needs all. It would take a long, long time to pay back. 15 years maybe, and not sure if we'll stay here for that long?
b) Storage heaters - I have never heard much about them and still in two minds, cheaper to start, £2k for two should work. But if I'm away whole week, not sure how much electricity will stay till the evening etc. Also not happy with day rate 25% more expensive.
c) Cheap quick term solution - simple electric fans Wifi controlled via smart sockets and on Agile Octopus tariff.
If I'm home whole day I will heat the house when it's cheapest. If I come back after 7pm - heat the house then. Also would consider Tracker if my life was more scheduled.

So yeah, we're now with option C, compared to average UK bill for 3 bed house of £100/month for electricity and £100 for gas (£200 total), we've paid £150 for the last month and in summer we're about £50 - so it works out cheaper than average.

Gerry1

@Newbie_John You can't heat a house with simple electric fans.  They only move air around.