Upgrade old Night storage heaters, come off E7 and get "German" electric storage, or back to Gas

Spoonie_Turtle

MattNev said:

EssexHebridean said:

MattNev said:

Is there a way of sharing a PDF on this site.  I just had an interesting Elkatherm presentation PDF emailed to me with some very compelling stats. I have also had a decent Quote from Sunflow for 4 of their Non-night storage radiators from their new cheaper Elements range of £3477.  This is a self install price (they charge about £1000 to install and take away old NSHs).  This is still ~£1000 more expensive than going for new NSHs of course but better than the £5500 from Elkatherm or others.  Still not convinced, but the gap is closer and they are significantly slimmer and better looking than NSHs.

I may be misunderstanding this, but you are considering paying over three thousand pounds for supply  of what are effectively perfectly ordinary electric heaters? and that in itself is substantially more expensive than NSHs would be, even before you consider the advantage of them being far cheaper to run? I had a quick look at the site, they are essentially a big panel heater, so I'm not sure I really buy the argument about them being better looking than NSH's...and I definitely wouldn't like the bills involved in actually using them to produce heat! If money is of no object, and you like these heaters to look at, then fantastic, buy them and consider them to be artwork with an ongoing cost. However, if you want something cost effective, please don't be bamboozled into thinking that what you are getting is anything more than a blinged up panel heater which could be bought for a couple of hundred £'s if it wasn't for the designer label and the sales pitch. 

I lived with NSHs for 20 years - they did the job well, but more importantly, they did it extremely economically. Even through the beast from the east winter we were still routinely seeing lower bills than friends in similar properties with gas central heating. The newer ones aren't particularly offensive to look at either, but then I don't spend a huge amount of time staring at my heat sources to be honest! 

If I can’t trust the material provided by the “German” heaters as you all say I can’t how can I trust that from the NSH lot anymore.

I'd have thought the HHR NSHs being manufactured by long-standing reputable companies would go some way to establishing credibility.

A few users on here have/had HHR NSHs so hopefully they'll be able to vouch for them doing the job they claim to.

QrizB

eric4395 said:

QrizB said:

eric4395 said:

Our supplier is Scottish power , economy7 during the night used to be half the rate of our daily rate , now its virtually identical rates plus a ridicioulous fixed daily standing rate

@eric4395 I don't know where in the UK you are, but in my region (Southern) Scottish Power's E7 SVT is:

• Standing charge    49.98p per day
• Electricity day consumption charge    33.562p per kWh
• Electricity night consumption charg    16.536p per kWh

That's half the price off-peak vs. peak.

I stay in Central Belt( Falkirk area) in Scotland 

• Standing charge 65. 890 per day
• Day consumption 26.951 per kwh
• Night consumption 25.131 per kwh

Exactly what tariff is that?

For postcode FK5 3BF, I get:

• Standing charge    62.08p per day
• Electricity day consumption charge    32.797p per kWh
• Electricity night consumption charge    16.22p per kWh

Alternatively there's the EDF rate card here. Applies from January. For southern Scotland they're offering:

• Standing charge    62.06p per day
• Electricity day consumption charge    34.93p per kWh
• Electricity night consumption charge    16.51p per kWh

EssexHebridean

MattNev said:

EssexHebridean said:

MattNev said:

Is there a way of sharing a PDF on this site.  I just had an interesting Elkatherm presentation PDF emailed to me with some very compelling stats. I have also had a decent Quote from Sunflow for 4 of their Non-night storage radiators from their new cheaper Elements range of £3477.  This is a self install price (they charge about £1000 to install and take away old NSHs).  This is still ~£1000 more expensive than going for new NSHs of course but better than the £5500 from Elkatherm or others.  Still not convinced, but the gap is closer and they are significantly slimmer and better looking than NSHs.

I may be misunderstanding this, but you are considering paying over three thousand pounds for supply  of what are effectively perfectly ordinary electric heaters? and that in itself is substantially more expensive than NSHs would be, even before you consider the advantage of them being far cheaper to run? I had a quick look at the site, they are essentially a big panel heater, so I'm not sure I really buy the argument about them being better looking than NSH's...and I definitely wouldn't like the bills involved in actually using them to produce heat! If money is of no object, and you like these heaters to look at, then fantastic, buy them and consider them to be artwork with an ongoing cost. However, if you want something cost effective, please don't be bamboozled into thinking that what you are getting is anything more than a blinged up panel heater which could be bought for a couple of hundred £'s if it wasn't for the designer label and the sales pitch. 

I lived with NSHs for 20 years - they did the job well, but more importantly, they did it extremely economically. Even through the beast from the east winter we were still routinely seeing lower bills than friends in similar properties with gas central heating. The newer ones aren't particularly offensive to look at either, but then I don't spend a huge amount of time staring at my heat sources to be honest! 

I’m not discounting anything at the moment but you are right it is a lot of money, if what everyone here is saying is true and they are no different from any other electric heater.  (1)

I do need to upgrade my old NSHs as although I turned the output right down when I left this morning the flat was toasty when I got back - so a lot of heat leak and they are already cooling down by 7pm. (2)

anybody hear with new NSHs, do they leak heat much during the day when the output is turned down? (3)

If I can’t trust the material provided by the “German” heaters as you all say I can’t how can I trust that from the NSH lot anymore. (4)

(1) it is - they are literally just panel heaters in fancy knickers. 

(2) hang on - you mention turning the heat output down this morning…? You need to turn the output back to the lowest before going to bed - otherwise they are losing more heat than needed overnight while also charging, so costing you more money. It also means that there is more heat left in them for when you get home in the evening. 

(3) the new HHR ones don’t work the same - at least the Quantums don’t. There is no output as such, you just set them for when you want the heat to be output and then the inbuilt fan pushes the heat out into the room. Far more efficient.

(4) the main thing is not to believe anyone who tries to give you the impression that their heaters can do things that physics doesn’t allow. Other than heat pumps, electric heaters are incredibly straightforward - and they can’t give out more heat than the energy you have put into them. Where NSH’s can be more economical is because they charge overnight on off-peak rate electricity - and they will then store the heat until you want it to be released. That means you are getting heat produced at midday that cost you 15p per kWh, whereas your magic clay German heaters are giving you heat at midday that cost you 29p per kEh. Allowing you need the same amount of heat to keep you comfortable whether it comes from a NSH or a glamorous and svelte German model (yes, we’re still talking heaters, behave!)  you can see how your costs for heating using NSHs are indeed likely to be cheaper - and that is the claim you will most often see from their manufacturers - more economy, NOT more efficiency.

RedFraggle

I replaced two of the old NSHs in my flat with Quantums and they're brilliant. 
My night use last month was 558 kWh, my day 220kwh.
For context 
No gas.
Water is a thermal store.
I keep the flat at 20 except my bedroom which is 16 to 18C.
First floor end of block flat.
Garages under the bedrooms
Built 2000
About 75 sqm

TheElectricCow

MattNev said:

If I can’t trust the material provided by the “German” heaters as you all say I can’t how can I trust that from the NSH lot anymore.

That depends on what material you’re looking at and how you’re interpreting it, but generally it’s not overly difficult to disprove a false claim with a little knowledge (something many on this forum would be happy to assist with if needed).

All electrical resistive heaters operate on same basically the same efficiency (100%) - they consume a certain amount of electricity and turn it into the same amount of heat energy.

If you buy a £20 2kW electric heater from argos it will produce the same amount of heat from the same amount of electricity as a £2000 2kW electric “German” heater. All other things equal, the running costs would be exactly the same for both, and any marketing that suggests otherwise is simply trying to mislead and take you for a ride.

Storage heaters on the other hand are different because they’re designed to work in conjunction with an off-peak electric tariff by heating up on a cheap rate and releasing that heat when needed later on. They produce heat in the same way as a standard panel heater and don’t need to claim any “magic” efficiency improvements. 

The savings from storage heaters come from charging them on a cheaper night rate e.g. from E7, so it’s not the heater itself saving money by using less energy as the savings come entirely from your choice of tariff. For most people, running panel heaters on E7 may not be practical, so they cannot achieve the same savings.

The specification sheets for each product should be able to confirm any details regarding power consumption and heat storage. Looking at the specs for “Elkatherm” there’s nothing that suggests those heaters are anything other than standard panel heaters filled with fireclay in a nice looking exterior case. Putting clay, magic dust, snake oil, or moon rocks inside a panel heater will not make it any cheaper to run and won’t make it retain heat in the way a storage heater does.

Compare this to the specs of say a Dimpex storage heater and you’ll find information on things like heat storage, output capabilities, and peak-rate boost power, showing that they have a measurable ability to hold heat inside them (which does nothing alone but does facilitate the use of a more economical tariff) and that they have been designed to operate on such tariffs.

In short: The electric heaters all use the same amount of energy to bring the temperature of your home up by a certain amount. The only thing that will change the cost of this amount of heating is your tariff.

QrizB

Bumping this thread now I've found the report.

MattNev said:

If I can’t trust the material provided by the “German” heaters as you all say I can’t how can I trust that from the NSH lot anymore.

You don't have to trust either of them.

Fischer commissioned an independent report from the BRE, comparing two models of their clay-filled panel heaters (one basic, one clever) with two different models of storage heaters (one basic, one clever) and a gas boiler.

You'll find the report here:
https://fischerfutureheat.com/app/uploads/2022/05/BRE-Test-Report.pdf

The expensive Ficher heaters provided tighter temperature control (the most constant temperature) than any of the other systems, followed closely by the gas boiler and the clever storage heaters. The basic storage heaters gave the loosest temperature control, although it's not clear from the report whether there was any manual intervention to adjust dampers etc. in response to room temperatures.

The amount of electricity used by the four systems was similar, around 70kWh/day. The gas boiler used roughly 50% more, although the report notes "this is due to the specific inefficiencies of the system installed in relation to the test apartment, and cannot be quoted as a general figure to represent the difference in efficiency between gas central heating and electric heating".

The report also notes that, because they aren't storage heaters, "the maximum power demand [of the Fischer heaters] is not coinciding with the reduced overnight Economy 7 tariff", ie. they will cost more to run.

JSHarris

Earlier in this thread there was a suggestion to look at using an air-to-air heat pump.  Might not be possible, but thought it might be useful to add a data point about these things.  Three years ago we had a problem with our bedroom (room in roof design) getting far too hot in summer.  I fitted a small (2.5kW max) aircon unit.  Easy to install, cost around £800 IIRC.  Works very well, too.

The recent cold snap resulted in our bedroom being a bit chilly, so I experimented with using the aircon (which is really just an efficient air-to-air heat pump) in heating mode.  To say I was gobsmacked by it's performance would be an understatement.  In freezing weather it used around 200W to maintain a cosy temperature.  It was also almost completely silent, and it heated the room up very quickly.  Definitely worth considering if it's practical, and not too costly, to install, IMHO.  Great for any area where you only want heat some of the time, as the heat up time is pretty fast (maybe ten minutes or so).

MattNev

QrizB said:

You'll find the report here:

https://fischerfutureheat.com/app/uploads/2022/05/BRE-Test-Report.pdf

The expensive Ficher heaters provided tighter temperature control (the most constant temperature) than any of the other systems, followed closely by the gas boiler and the clever storage heaters. The basic storage heaters gave the loosest temperature control, although it's not clear from the report whether there was any manual intervention to adjust dampers etc. in response to room temperatures.

The amount of electricity used by the four systems was similar, around 70kWh/day. The gas boiler used roughly 50% more, although the report notes "this is due to the specific inefficiencies of the system installed in relation to the test apartment, and cannot be quoted as a general figure to represent the difference in efficiency between gas central heating and electric heating".

The report also notes that, because they aren't storage heaters, "the maximum power demand [of the Fischer heaters] is not coinciding with the reduced overnight Economy 7 tariff", ie. they will cost more to run.

Many thanks for sharing that report.
what would have been really interesting would have been overlaying the power usage costs of each system against the power used.  It’s a bit misleading as is.
eg Dimplex using economy 7 prices and Gas using (currently) much cheaper prices. Would this tip the balance back to Dimplex for electricity ? 
It’s the actual costs to run which we are ultimately interested in.

MattNev

Many thanks for everyone’s comments. 

I would love to put GCH back in but at a £7k price tag and new pipes coming down through ceilings in every room I will leave it for now.
It’s looking like the new Dimplex systems are the way to go for me, especially as British Gas have announced a smart tariff with Dimplex HHR systems

QrizB

MattNev said:

Many thanks for sharing that report.
what would have been really interesting would have been overlaying the power usage costs of each system against the power used.  It’s a bit misleading as is.
eg Dimplex using economy 7 prices and Gas using (currently) much cheaper prices. Would this tip the balance back to Dimplex for electricity ? 
It’s the actual costs to run which we are ultimately interested in.

I had a stab at that a couple of years ago. I've revisited the calcs with most of the tariff changes since. You'll find the link in my signature.

Edit to add link:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/78557202/#Comment_78557202

And copy-paste the relevant numbers:

The new tariffs give, for 10MWh of heat demand and the same boiler efficiency assumptions as before:

• Gas: £1128/yr
• E7 NSH: £1644/yr
  
• Single-rate panel heaters: £2879/yr
• E7 composite rate panel heaters: £2778/yr
• E7 daytime rate panel heaters: £3600/yr

Your property might need less than 10MWh of heat per year, but you can pro-rata the numbers. Panel heaters (even fancy ones with German names) are looking ~75% more expensive to run than storage heaters.