Upgrade old Night storage heaters, come off E7 and get "German" electric storage, or back to Gas

eric4395

I have a 3 bedroomed house ( electric supply only) with Creda storage heaters. 1 in the living room and 1 in the hall( we dont use any of the panel heaters in the 3 bedrooms as we cant afford to so upstairs is always cold in winter months)  Our supplier is Scottish power , economy7 during the night used to be half the rate of our daily rate , now its virtually identical rates plus a ridicioulous fixed daily  standing rate  Our  electricity bill last year for the 3 months between Dec- Feb was approx £1250  less the gov grant which brought it below £1000. Obviously we wont have that this year and with prices going up in jan again i expect it to be even more than last year. Add in all the heat is usually gone by 9pm.  Any suggestions apart from put on more clothing 

EssexHebridean

MattNev said:

Is there a way of sharing a PDF on this site.  I just had an interesting Elkatherm presentation PDF emailed to me with some very compelling stats. I have also had a decent Quote from Sunflow for 4 of their Non-night storage radiators from their new cheaper Elements range of £3477.  This is a self install price (they charge about £1000 to install and take away old NSHs).  This is still ~£1000 more expensive than going for new NSHs of course but better than the £5500 from Elkatherm or others.  Still not convinced, but the gap is closer and they are significantly slimmer and better looking than NSHs.

I may be misunderstanding this, but you are considering paying over three thousand pounds for supply  of what are effectively perfectly ordinary electric heaters? and that in itself is substantially more expensive than NSHs would be, even before you consider the advantage of them being far cheaper to run? I had a quick look at the site, they are essentially a big panel heater, so I'm not sure I really buy the argument about them being better looking than NSH's...and I definitely wouldn't like the bills involved in actually using them to produce heat! If money is of no object, and you like these heaters to look at, then fantastic, buy them and consider them to be artwork with an ongoing cost. However, if you want something cost effective, please don't be bamboozled into thinking that what you are getting is anything more than a blinged up panel heater which could be bought for a couple of hundred £'s if it wasn't for the designer label and the sales pitch. 

I lived with NSHs for 20 years - they did the job well, but more importantly, they did it extremely economically. Even through the beast from the east winter we were still routinely seeing lower bills than friends in similar properties with gas central heating. The newer ones aren't particularly offensive to look at either, but then I don't spend a huge amount of time staring at my heat sources to be honest! 

Scot_39

Newbie_John said:

Gerry1 said:

@Newbie_John You can't heat a house with simple electric fans.  They only move air around.

Sorry, I meant simple electric fan heater 2kW 

I'd never want to use floor mounted electrical hot bar / wire element style fan heaters etc unattended via a remote smart switch.

I'd trust a full sized oil filled radiator - I have one on an old fashioned timer I used when out all day on timer to catch afternoon off peak on my e10 in autumn spring rather than nsh heating all day

Getting back to thread....

But heating the house even with agile off peak at say 2-3pm in winter  - isn't the same as releasing heat from a decent lot 20 or full hhr standard nsh at say 5-6pm - when you might need it.

And when agile might actually be charging twice SR rates for your heating cooking concerns etc as well.

My large nsh is 3.5kW in, but only c1kW out if fully charged, the equivalent Quantum 150RF 3.3kW in for charging bricks, 2.0kW out from latest manual.

So a 2kW fan heater that retails at c£1000 rather than £20-30.  And many people willing to pay it.

I agree though re agile - would also think watching agile over a full winter might produce a fairer comparison than last years agile  - at least peak slot pricing.  The absence of epg 'discounting' from July 1st was quite noticeable.

Perhaps a brave step would be agile and automated variable time of use charging  - but that seems largely DIY mixed tech at moment - but others here been automating stuff with ad hoc kit.

Perhaps one of hhr manufactureres will or should link with Octopus - and agile.  Now they are a major supplier and tariff more established.

Dimplex have linked in past with Ovo (a complete package inc heaters iirc )and EDF for trials and currently have a cheaper than standard  e7 night rate special with BGas.

Scot_39

MattNev said:

  Gerry1, No.  But you can't ignore the aethetic, if one is that way inclined, especially when doing a complete refurb. I will not be alone in that.  As I said, Im still not decided and am not about to be conned into a falsely advertised system. However, what will be the advantage of NSHs if I end up going on a flat day rate because I decide after all my evening and weekend electricity usage at peat rate economy 7 tarif I decide a lower fixed rate works out the same out cheaper overall. I just don't know yet, and arguments at present seem to be bias in both directions.

Just a Newbie opinion, entering this debate for the first time

AFAIK There's no real advantage to nsh on a flat rate tariff.

Your paying for the storage to shift off peak costs for all day heating.

It might be relatively easy for many to get average e7  lower than SR with electric heating and hot water at off peak rates (but a standard electric shower used at day peak can offset tank e7 night rate use advantage for hw in non heating months)

But as you mentioned agile time of use tariff earlier - other flat rates are available - so compared to their daily fixed tracker - regularly below SR - that again is much more interesting.

So again that might be another option to think about.  Tracker fixed daily rates and standard panels.

Spoonie_Turtle

On the cost aspect for the OP, was it you who said you weren't sure how long you'd be there but you'd likely keep the place to rent out?  If so you have to consider that even if you can afford the higher running costs of electric panel heaters, potential tenants may not be.

Historically heating may not have been much of a deal-breaker for people viewing properties, but historically energy was cheap.  All that has changed now.

MattNev

EssexHebridean said:

MattNev said:

Is there a way of sharing a PDF on this site.  I just had an interesting Elkatherm presentation PDF emailed to me with some very compelling stats. I have also had a decent Quote from Sunflow for 4 of their Non-night storage radiators from their new cheaper Elements range of £3477.  This is a self install price (they charge about £1000 to install and take away old NSHs).  This is still ~£1000 more expensive than going for new NSHs of course but better than the £5500 from Elkatherm or others.  Still not convinced, but the gap is closer and they are significantly slimmer and better looking than NSHs.

I may be misunderstanding this, but you are considering paying over three thousand pounds for supply  of what are effectively perfectly ordinary electric heaters? and that in itself is substantially more expensive than NSHs would be, even before you consider the advantage of them being far cheaper to run? I had a quick look at the site, they are essentially a big panel heater, so I'm not sure I really buy the argument about them being better looking than NSH's...and I definitely wouldn't like the bills involved in actually using them to produce heat! If money is of no object, and you like these heaters to look at, then fantastic, buy them and consider them to be artwork with an ongoing cost. However, if you want something cost effective, please don't be bamboozled into thinking that what you are getting is anything more than a blinged up panel heater which could be bought for a couple of hundred £'s if it wasn't for the designer label and the sales pitch. 

I lived with NSHs for 20 years - they did the job well, but more importantly, they did it extremely economically. Even through the beast from the east winter we were still routinely seeing lower bills than friends in similar properties with gas central heating. The newer ones aren't particularly offensive to look at either, but then I don't spend a huge amount of time staring at my heat sources to be honest! 

I’m not discounting anything at the moment but you are right it is a lot of money, if what everyone here is saying is true and they are no different from any other electric heater.  

I do need to upgrade my old NSHs as although I turned the output right down when I left this morning the flat was toasty when I got back - so a lot of heat leak and they are already cooling down by 7pm.

anybody hear with new NSHs, do they leak heat much during the day when the output is turned down?

If I can’t trust the material provided by the “German” heaters as you all say I can’t how can I trust that from the NSH lot anymore.

Gerry1

The German heaters are probably fine - in Germany.  Probably used in small  well insulated flats, on tariffs much lower than in the UK.  But they don't store any significant heat so they rely on daytime electricity, each kWh costing the same as if it were used by a cheap fan heater.

@RedFraggle may be able to advise.  They don't waste heat overnight and at other times when it's not needed.  Think of your old NSHs like a hot water bottle and HHRs like a vacuum flask.

QrizB

eric4395 said:

Our supplier is Scottish power , economy7 during the night used to be half the rate of our daily rate , now its virtually identical rates plus a ridicioulous fixed daily standing rate

@eric4395 I don't know where in the UK you are, but in my region (Southern) Scottish Power's E7 SVT is:

Standing charge    49.98p per day
Electricity day consumption charge    33.562p per kWh
Electricity night consumption charg    16.536p per kWh

That's half the price off-peak vs. peak.

Scot_39

You need to be careful about what people mean by efficiency.

In terms of electrical efficiency and cost of heating rooms.

In simple physics terms - these fancy heaters are normally just using heating coils / elements - and so 1kWh of electrical energy in = 1 kWh of radiator / core heating.

Energy cannot be created per se - and 1kWh of electrical energy - will be 1kWh of heat delivered over time to room.

That's why people say conventional electric heaters are all just as efficient.  In terms of converting power to heat.

In simplest terms if you want your whole room at say 18C 24 / 7 - then largely the cost in terms of electrical input energy would be the same.  

Unless get to external heat recovery systems like ashp.



But "efficiency" when it comes to heating is not just simply element / energy physics.

And most people dont want heating on constant 24/7.

Some panels claim significant differences in ability to deliver that "element or core" heat to the room - talking about improved radiant or convected heat output etc

So when it comes to heating  How and where heat is delivered matters.

A cheap fan heater will feel warm almost instantly if in front of it.  But not behind etc.
A cheap convection heater likewise right above it. 
A halogen element will emit heat radiantly in direction.
An oil filled radiator takes time to warm - in minutes.
A conventional night storage heater more like hours to react.

Some will cool immediately - others will take mins or hours  / days to fully cool.

So at extremes for instance compare the fan with your old style nsh.

Switch fan on - get instant heat. Switch off when leave for work or go to bed - no more heat no more cost.  That's a sort of measure of efficient or rather cost efficient on demand heating.

Switch on your nsh from cold and you'll get nothing initially - you heat the bricks - high mass and low thermal conduction - initially - then the heat reaches the brick surface and that heats the case and air flow. 

Today you turned your ns heater off after it had charged - it released that heat as designed slowly but not slowly enough for you.  The reality is you really probably needed to switch it off yesterday or turn it down a bit.

And your home will leak at least some heat relative to temp differences (and other factors wind / sun etc ) so if out all day - keeping home at say 18 is going to be a bit more costly than letting it drop to say 15 or whatever for several hours before return when empty or same overnight in most peoples cases.

But over time - days - n kWh electrical energy enters heaters - n kWh of heat energy will leave them. 

But the complex relation of power input and heat output timings from heaters, heat circulation within or between rooms and losses from home will result in different room temperature patterns.

If you were at home all day your needs would be different and arguably more suited to even old nsh.  More modern thermostatically regulated lot 20 and hhr are far more controllable.
And NSH have the major advantage of time shifting costs of that heat.

I really need to look at weather forecasts and adjust my old nsh regularly over winter.  Modern NSH at  best are fully automated - with self learning charge cycles  -  some more readily use a little peak rate automatically to do so if get a sudden cold snap.

They are essentially as controllable as GCH - old ones more akin to a coal fire - in as much as need arguably constant attention and very laggy..

In last 2-3 weeks I have had between 1 and 3 of my nsh on - from min on 1 to near third on input settings on cold days - and wound back down as weather warmed.

I put up with old nsh as have e10 and not e7 - even though that is more expensive - c4p on off peak rate with my supplier.  But with careful use can keep a target min in most of the house 24/7. Boost heating in living room, cooking, washing even tv computers etc etc  I can also use off peak rates afternoon and evening - activity e7 would penalise at peak rate.


PS  does your old nsh have a second output control to control air flow ?   Mines has a setting that allows vents to be opened progressively later in day (but my e10 makes it awkward to fine tune anyway)

eric4395

QrizB said:

eric4395 said:

Our supplier is Scottish power , economy7 during the night used to be half the rate of our daily rate , now its virtually identical rates plus a ridicioulous fixed daily standing rate

@eric4395 I don't know where in the UK you are, but in my region (Southern) Scottish Power's E7 SVT is:

Standing charge    49.98p per day
Electricity day consumption charge    33.562p per kWh
Electricity night consumption charg    16.536p per kWh

That's half the price off-peak vs. peak.

I stay in Central Belt( Falkirk area) in Scotland 
Standing charge 65. 890 per day
Day consumption 26.951 per kwh
Night consumption 25.131 per kwh