FIXED PENALTY NOTICE FOR CIGARETTE BUTT

Grumpy_chap

PHK said:

Entrapment ? Surely you just take it with you like any other litter? 

Drifting off-topic but on our area, they use "littering" rules to deal with public urination and require people to remove an item of clothing to wipe up their "litter" as the only immediate escape to being issued the FPN.

That approach, presumably, should apply here also in that, if the OP had dropped (or was suspected of) the cigarette end, then the Enforcement Office should have given the OP the opportunity to pick up the litter before issuing the FPN.

Aylesbury_Duck

Largs said:

Aylesbury_Duck said:

Largs said:

Sorry I cant offer advice, but I got one of these years ago @ Glasgow Central railway station.  They stand outside the main entrance where people stand for a cigarette inbetween trains.  There are no bins about because of bomb scares (false ones) so people do drop the cigarette end.  It is basically free cash for Glasgow City Council and I think it's nothing short of a disgrace.  He told me it was all captured on CCTV and to appeal would be pointless.  I wrote a letter asking the council for CCTV footage - I think it was a subject access request and they wrote back saying fine cancelled.  I was heading to Lloret de Mar and it spoilt the start of my holiday.  It's more or less a honey trap.  I hope you get it sorted.

Come on...it's littering, however you dress it up.  Would you say that leaving a drinks can on the floor is OK when you're thirsty between trains and there aren't any bins around?  Why is it any different for cigarette litter?  You're just making excuses for antisocial behaviour.  Whatever the rights and wrongs of FPNs for it, it spoiling the start of your holiday was entirely self-inflicted.

I am not getting into a ding dong about it.  I gave what happened to me and that is it.  It's is not antisocoal behaviour in my book.  If there was a bin, it would be in one.  Most people are tidy and considerate in my book.  I will repeat once again that I hope the poster gets things sorted.  City Council resources would be better spent elsewhere, like catching the people in cars whos exhaust sound like a race car or the ones that use the drive through at fast food places and throw the entire bag out the window.  I could go on but taking away bins and then standing there outside the entrance to railway station knowing full well there is no where to put litter in unfair.  Entrapment.

That's one of the funniest uses of "entrapment" I've seen, bravo.  Some good whataboutery thrown in for good measure, too.  Bonus.  You have been docked a mark for somehow not managing to bring cyclists into it.  Must try harder.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Largs said:

Sorry I cant offer advice, but I got one of these years ago @ Glasgow Central railway station.  They stand outside the main entrance where people stand for a cigarette inbetween trains.  There are no bins about because of bomb scares (false ones) so people do drop the cigarette end.  It is basically free cash for Glasgow City Council and I think it's nothing short of a disgrace.  He told me it was all captured on CCTV and to appeal would be pointless.  I wrote a letter asking the council for CCTV footage - I think it was a subject access request and they wrote back saying fine cancelled.  I was heading to Lloret de Mar and it spoilt the start of my holiday.  It's more or less a honey trap.  I hope you get it sorted.

Similar thing in the town we used to live in, those wall mounted bins just for butts could be in place which would be an effective way to prevent littering. 

The problem is a lot of councils are using a third party to employ the enforcement officers, the third party gets a % of the ticket and the officers get pushed to issue a certain number of tickets so instead of a council employee who whose job is to reduce littering through both education and fines you have a situation where there isn't any incentive to reduce littering, in fact the opposite. 

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/aug/10/record-number-english-welsh-councils-private-firms-litter-fines

If you refuse the penalty notice they can try to use the body cam footage to attempt to identify and prosecute you however they need to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you commit the offence where as with the penalty notice the officer just needs to reasonably believe (basically convince you that you should accept it). 

A quick Google suggests failing to give your info is also a crime that can come with a fine of up to £1000 so it's a question of whether they can identify you. 

For the OP they can do a subject access request for the body cam footage although how the timeframes for this vs paying the ticket line up I'm not sure. 

Aylesbury_Duck

PHK said:

Entrapment ? Surely you just take it with you like any other litter? 

Apparently it's compulsory to leave litter behind.  When there's no bin, you have no choice.  A cigarette butt is quite heavy and bulky, you know.  You can't be heaving it all the way home, be reasonable.

PHK

You're quite right, I'd also forgotten that its mandatory to light up as soon as you leave a station. Rather than wait a few minutes until there's somewhere to dispose of the extremely bulky fag butt.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

PHK said:

You're quite right, I'd also forgotten that its mandatory to light up as soon as you leave a station. Rather than wait a few minutes until there's somewhere to dispose of the extremely bulky fag butt.

I think you're missing the point. If there are bins some people put their rubbish in the bin, some throw it on the floor and some of those get fined. If there aren't bins more people throw it on the floor, some of those get fined.

Which one is better for you as someone who doesn't wish to look at rubbish in the street? 

swingaloo

I think a lot of smokers are inconsiderate in that they dont think it is the same as dropping a drink can or paper bag.  you only have to look outside any pub in most towns to see that the smokers who stand outside, instead of using the bins fixed to the wall will just throw their cig onto the path or road.
There are 2 pubs on our small high street and if every smoker that threw a cig away instead of binning it was fined a tenner each time our council would probably have the best funding in the country.

Aylesbury_Duck

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

PHK said:

You're quite right, I'd also forgotten that its mandatory to light up as soon as you leave a station. Rather than wait a few minutes until there's somewhere to dispose of the extremely bulky fag butt.

I think you're missing the point. If there are bins some people put their rubbish in the bin, some throw it on the floor and some of those get fined. If there aren't bins more people throw it on the floor, some of those get fined.

Which one is better for you as someone who doesn't wish to look at rubbish in the street? 

Well yes, I agree that having bins available is better than not, but there not being bins doesn't excuse littering.  It's just lazy and antisocial, no matter how it's dressed up or excused.

Depending on the data source and how it's measured, cigarette litter accounts for one third to two thirds of all litter in the UK.  It's not a small problem confined to a station without bins.

sheramber

Bins need enptying and it means paying someone to empty them. Council are short of money so is it better to have bins for the people who are too lazy to take thier litter home with them or provide home care for a disabled person.

There is only one pot of money which at present does not go very far.

RefluentBeans

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

PHK said:

You're quite right, I'd also forgotten that its mandatory to light up as soon as you leave a station. Rather than wait a few minutes until there's somewhere to dispose of the extremely bulky fag butt.

I think you're missing the point. If there are bins some people put their rubbish in the bin, some throw it on the floor and some of those get fined. If there aren't bins more people throw it on the floor, some of those get fined.

Which one is better for you as someone who doesn't wish to look at rubbish in the street? 

As others have said - does this go for coffee cups, cans/bottles, food waste, vapes; or just cigarette butts? I find it insane to me that the option of ‘taking it with you until you find a bin’ isn’t an option apparently. If only people had pockets or bags instead of flicking their rubbish everywhere. 

I assume you also take the same approach when tourists come to Wales and drop all their rubbish / it’s fair because there’s no bins, right?