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Sainsburys Bank ATM Faulty or Cash Trapping Scam
Comments
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born_again said:MrFrugalFever said:Nationwide have very little to do with this scenario, I am struggling to think of a specific situation whereby they would be from the information the OP has provided.
Perhaps, had the ATM failed to connect to the OP's bank account or a technical glitch had occurred whereby the OP had been charged for the withdrawal without physically receiving the money then Nationwide would have an involvement.
The issue is with the ATM itself (tampered with) and the Sainsbury's store in which it is situated and therefore the OP's efforts (with regards to the complaint) should be directed at Sainsbury's. It is the responsibility of Sainsbury's staff to refill the ATM's with cash and check for any obvious issues along with trying to fix any issues with a 'self-help' guide. Anything beyond this and an ATM engineer is required. Downtime for an ATM results in loss of income to the store.
ATM's are part of Sainsburys bank, not Sainsburys stores. So no income is lost at the store. ATM being down might actually increase store income if people go in for cashback, as requires a purchase 👍If you believe you can, you will. If you believe you can't, you won't.
Secured/Unsecured loans x 1
Credit Cards x 8 (total limit £51,300)
Creation FS Retail Account x 1
0% Overdraft x 1 (£0 / £250)
Mortgage Outstanding - £138,087.38 (Payment 11/360)
Total Debt = £1,125.00 (0%APR) @ £112.50pm1 -
I will make one final comment on here as it seems to be going round in circles.
The OP has done the correct thing by raising the query/complaint to both the Sainsbury's store management and Nationwide.
The Sainsbury's store management will have a clear process to follow if a customer is to come in to the store and complain that they have withdrawn funds which have not been dispensed. The process would involve the store cash office colleague(s) checking and balancing the ATM, which can be easily done on the computer system that sits on the back of the ATM (they use this to input values of cash filled in to the £5/£10/£20 cash bins). If the CCTV proved no cash was dispensed and ATM was to be found in balance error by the claimed £70 then it would be down to the store managements discretion to provide goodwill to the customer for that amount. It would also be down to the store management and cash office colleague to investigate WHY that machine had not dispensed the cash.
Cash is physically delivered to a store, stored in a safe and then placed in to denominated cassettes by a cash office colleague who then tells the ATM how much cash has gone in to the machine. The ATM is 'taken offline' for this duration and will often say 'Temporarily unavailable' or 'out of service' on the external customer facing screen.
When Sainsbury's Bank was operated by Lloyds Bank, there were rebates to the stores themselves for 'uptime' of the ATM and any significant 'downtime' would result in a deduction of rebates, this, as far as i'm aware, is still the case of Sainsburys Bank (wholly owned by Sainsbury's). If a fault cannot be rectified by the cash office colleague following the ATM fault finding guides provided then an engineer is called and the ATM remains 'out of service' until such time as the engineer attends.
There is CCTV everywhere in the office, double locked security doors and a passing hatch for the money delivery personnel (who carry the money in locked briefcases and wear time sensitive security alarms) to pass it through to the cash office staff.
In the OP's instance, it would be at the discretion of the store management to provide Goodwill (note not a refund) of the £70. Should the OP get £70 back from Nationwide as a result of the complaint then....so be it. But the OP should not be out of pocket for an alleged mistake by the ATM system due to either a technical error or a fraudulent device, which Sainsbury's have a duty of care to spot, remove and report.
If you believe you can, you will. If you believe you can't, you won't.
Secured/Unsecured loans x 1
Credit Cards x 8 (total limit £51,300)
Creation FS Retail Account x 1
0% Overdraft x 1 (£0 / £250)
Mortgage Outstanding - £138,087.38 (Payment 11/360)
Total Debt = £1,125.00 (0%APR) @ £112.50pm4 -
Many thanks for the comprehensive post Mr FF .
I will not repost myself until I get a resolution or a significant development occurs.1 -
brianposter said:Institutional stupidity is obviously a hot topic at the moment and this appears to be an example. There is no reason why the complaint should be about Nationwide as they have manifestly not failed in any way.And if the banks have set up a particular method of resolving a complaint it is they, not the customer, that should follow the process. The FOS should certainly not be fobbing people off with nonsense such as "you don't meet the definition of an eligible complainant".
https://www.handbook.fca.org.uk/handbook/DISP/2/7.html
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/8/part/XVI
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MrFrugalFever said:I will make one final comment on here as it seems to be going round in circles.
The OP has done the correct thing by raising the query/complaint to both the Sainsbury's store management and Nationwide.
The Sainsbury's store management will have a clear process to follow if a customer is to come in to the store and complain that they have withdrawn funds which have not been dispensed. The process would involve the store cash office colleague(s) checking and balancing the ATM, which can be easily done on the computer system that sits on the back of the ATM (they use this to input values of cash filled in to the £5/£10/£20 cash bins). If the CCTV proved no cash was dispensed and ATM was to be found in balance error by the claimed £70 then it would be down to the store managements discretion to provide goodwill to the customer for that amount. It would also be down to the store management and cash office colleague to investigate WHY that machine had not dispensed the cash.
Cash is physically delivered to a store, stored in a safe and then placed in to denominated cassettes by a cash office colleague who then tells the ATM how much cash has gone in to the machine. The ATM is 'taken offline' for this duration and will often say 'Temporarily unavailable' or 'out of service' on the external customer facing screen.
When Sainsbury's Bank was operated by Lloyds Bank, there were rebates to the stores themselves for 'uptime' of the ATM and any significant 'downtime' would result in a deduction of rebates, this, as far as i'm aware, is still the case of Sainsburys Bank (wholly owned by Sainsbury's). If a fault cannot be rectified by the cash office colleague following the ATM fault finding guides provided then an engineer is called and the ATM remains 'out of service' until such time as the engineer attends.
There is CCTV everywhere in the office, double locked security doors and a passing hatch for the money delivery personnel (who carry the money in locked briefcases and wear time sensitive security alarms) to pass it through to the cash office staff.
In the OP's instance, it would be at the discretion of the store management to provide Goodwill (note not a refund) of the £70. Should the OP get £70 back from Nationwide as a result of the complaint then....so be it. But the OP should not be out of pocket for an alleged mistake by the ATM system due to either a technical error or a fraudulent device, which Sainsbury's have a duty of care to spot, remove and report.
I have made complaints to Nationwide and Sainsburys Bank who on checking the ATM did not find a problem or the £70 .They did a check and found the ATM to be only "£10 Over".
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eskbanker said:
the fact remains that the definition of an eligible complainant is set by the FCA, who have determined that individuals can only legitimately complain to institutions of which they're a customer, and FOS are legally obliged (by the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000) to follow that definition:
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brianposter said:eskbanker said:
the fact remains that the definition of an eligible complainant is set by the FCA, who have determined that individuals can only legitimately complain to institutions of which they're a customer, and FOS are legally obliged (by the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000) to follow that definition:
I'd have thought that this situation isn't particularly uncommon, in that ATM disputes must always be logged with the customer's own bank rather than the ATM operator, and it's only if they're one and the same bank that the scenario would differ from OP's, so FOS (and likely the FCA too) will be very familiar with this pattern 24 years on from FSMA 2000, and implicitly won't consider it a significant enough issue to change the rules.1 -
eskbanker said:
I'd have thought that this situation isn't particularly uncommon, in that ATM disputes must always be logged with the customer's own bank rather than the ATM operator, and it's only if they're one and the same bank that the scenario would differ from OP's, so FOS (and likely the FCA too) will be very familiar with this pattern 24 years on from FSMA 2000, and implicitly won't consider it a significant enough issue to change the rules.I am suggesting that the OP complain about the FOS (as well as following any additional instructions that can be obtained from the FOS) as attitudes may have changed as a result of the PO scandal.It is quite obvious in this case that the "standard procedure" is making a mountain out of a molehill, and I have already asked what happens if the card used is a foreign card.
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brianposter said:eskbanker said:
I'd have thought that this situation isn't particularly uncommon, in that ATM disputes must always be logged with the customer's own bank rather than the ATM operator, and it's only if they're one and the same bank that the scenario would differ from OP's, so FOS (and likely the FCA too) will be very familiar with this pattern 24 years on from FSMA 2000, and implicitly won't consider it a significant enough issue to change the rules.I am suggesting that the OP complain about the FOS (as well as following any additional instructions that can be obtained from the FOS) as attitudes may have changed as a result of the PO scandal.brianposter said:
It is quite obvious in this case that the "standard procedure" is making a mountain out of a molehillbrianposter said:
I have already asked what happens if the card used is a foreign card.0 -
I had a similar problem today with the Sainsbury Cash Machine. 250 was deducted from the bank, but no cash came out! The bank said have to wait for some day's money back and then raise the dispute! This is crazy!0
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