Sainsburys Bank ATM Faulty or Cash Trapping Scam

eskbanker

theATMguru said:

If the card issuing bank refuses your claim, after liaising with the ATM deployer, they will give you your FOS rights. If you decide to go to FOS your complaint Is with your card issued, it costs the card issuer £250 to take a case to FOS so when it comes to a £70 claim it’s highly likely they’ll concede it as it’s not commercially viable for them to contest.

Although there was plenty of discussion earlier in the thread, the prevailing wisdom was undoubtedly that issues need to be handled by the card issuer rather than the ATM operator, so your post is consistent with that.  However, regarding the above FOS comment, where is the £250 figure coming from?  The current case fee (beyond the initial free 'allowance') is £650:

You won’t need to pay a case fee for the first 3 complaints against your business that we deal with in each financial year. From the 4th complaint onwards, we charge a case fee of £650.

https://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/businesses/resolving-complaint/case-fees

If you're suggesting that financial institutions will routinely settle claims for lower than the FOS case fee simply to avoid incurring it, I don't believe it's as simple as that!

theATMguru

Perhaps historical numbers there from me but if it's now £650 then if you want to take your complaint to FOS, then they'll write to the Card Issuer and ask them for their thoughts. At that point the Card Issuer has a decision to make, contest something that they can settle for £70 or pay £650 for FOS to decide on it.

All large Card Issuers will have used up their allowance of four per year in less than a few hours. Specifically for ATMs you will find that many of them run as a balance surplus, so when the FOS person in the Card Issuing Bank contacts the ATM dept they will generally at that point refund the customer via the LINK disputes process and advise FOS to not proceed to a case review.

I'm amazed and astounded to read that Nationwide allowed this to go to FOS for £70 plus the £650 fee. It just doesn't feel right.

theATMguru

djh said:

A further update form the Financial Ombudsman office to anyone who may be interested .

Nationwide has agreed to accept the F O S findings .
I have been refunded the £70 in question plus 8% interest.

I am now deciding on making a complaint to both Nationwide and Sainsburys Bank for the the way my initial complaint to them was conducted by their respective complaints departments .

I will try to complain to the Chief Executives office to both organisations.

I still do not know where the £70 is.
I still do not know if the ATM was faulty or tampered with.

I have been using ATMs without a problem for since 1977 at least.
I believe in recent years "buyer beware" has taken on a whole new meaning.

Unfortunately, you have no right to know where the £70 went nor to know if the ATM was faulty or tampered with. 

Writing to the Nationwide CEO will result in a junior member of staff acknowledging the complaint (again), advising you that the issue has been settled and apologising. 

Writing to the Sainsburys Bank CEO will result in them apologising for any inconvenience but that you should take this up with your Card Issuer.

You've said yourself that you've used ATMs since 1977, that's nearly 45 years, and if this is the first time you've had an issue then that's the context that you need to understand.

There are people employed across all ATM organisations to deal with customer disputes, frauds, operations, contractors, suppliers and law enforcement. 

WillPS

@theATMguru out of interest what happens if the card isuer isn't a LINK member, e.g. Starling, Monzo, Chase, Metro Bank? I presume they don't follow the LINK procedures, but instead the Plus/Cirrus ones?

theATMguru

WillPS said:

@theATMguru out of interest what happens if the card isuer isn't a LINK member, e.g. Starling, Monzo, Chase, Metro Bank? I presume they don't follow the LINK procedures, but instead the Plus/Cirrus ones?

Hi,
They’ll likely fall under the MasterCard or Visa rules (depends on whom the Scheme the Card Issuer uses) if they aren’t processed by LINK.

The ATM dispute process for non LINK schemes is broadly the same, most ATM Acquirers will follow the LINK rules albeit using a different system to process the dispute.

There will be some cards which ATM deployers just don’t accept thought, like China Union Pay.

djh

theATMguru said:

Stumbled across this threat by accident but I couldn’t help but register and respond to some to the stuff.

Every ATM deployer in the UK will have a different operating model - SB for example have a hybrid of store staff and 3rd parties

Do not take what a Store colleague or security guard says as gospel - the comment on the ASDA ATM is laughable and best ignored.

Quite simply ATMs perform over 1m transactions per day in the UK and issue billions of pounds. They are mechanical and process notes at about 40mph through their belts. There is a minuscule amount of issues.

Unfortunatelty, where there’s cash there’s also crime.  Be vigilant and follow the industry advice.

Despite the kicking and screaming on this thread the ATM deployer contracts with your card issuer and not you as a person. They have no access to your account and cannot validate your claim if you were debited or not. All Card Issuers and ATM deployers in the UK follow LINK rules.

In the case of a dispute simply contact your card issuer. Do not waste any time in contacting the ATM deployed, they cannot help you and will not divulge the level of information that you crave.

If the card issuing bank refuses your claim, after liaising with the ATM deployer, they will give you your FOS rights. If you decide to go to FOS your complaint Is with your card issued, it costs the card issuer £250 to take a case to FOS so when it comes to a £70 claim it’s highly likely they’ll concede it as it’s not commercially viable for them to contest.

Happy to help.

theATMguru said

Unfortunately, you have no right to know where the £70 went nor to know if the ATM was faulty or tampered with. 

Writing to the Nationwide CEO will result in a junior member of staff acknowledging the complaint (again), advising you that the issue has been settled and apologising. 

Writing to the Sainsburys Bank CEO will result in them apologising for any inconvenience but that you should take this up with your Card Issuer.

You've said yourself that you've used ATMs since 1977, that's nearly 45 years, and if this is the first time you've had an issue then that's the context that you need to understand.

There are people employed across all ATM organisations to deal with customer disputes, frauds, operations, contractors, suppliers and law enforcement. 

In the end I did not make any further complaints due to being too lazy and having achieved my original objective.

It was surprising how little information on the subject was which is why I originally posted.

We are also living in "different times" in this county with scaming devices now in circulation with ATM'S being targeted. 
There are notices on ATM'S regarding video surveillance which in a disputed transaction seem to be off limits to user's.
I suppose it's "buyer beware:
One other point ,Police are not interested ,it would seem.

djh

I do wonder if anyone is still coming across this post but if they are its happened again-same A T M same scenario. 
At the FOS as I post.It's been nearly a year from the last event.So far - the same responses from my bank and ATM operator although this time my bank is different.

boingy

I've just seen it because I've still got it bookmarked. I don't blame you for giving up. Those S-L-O-W complaint processes can drain the enthusiasm out of anyone.

We're in Gloucestershire and there has just been a whole spate of ATM-tampering:

https://www.gloucestershirelive.co.uk/news/gloucester-news/warning-after-card-cloning-devices-9715778

djh

I have not given up the last case was settled by the FOS and I was refunded.This is a whole new issue.This time the ATM took back £80 before I had a chance to retrieve it.Them the same as last time I withdrew £10 which I got then after finishing our shopping got a further £70. The £80 was within the ATM somewhere.It was not automatically reconciled and both organisations say there was nothing wrong with the transaction.

MrFrugalFever

djh said:

I have not given up the last case was settled by the FOS and I was refunded.This is a whole new issue.This time the ATM took back £80 before I had a chance to retrieve it.Them the same as last time I withdrew £10 which I got then after finishing our shopping got a further £70. The £80 was within the ATM somewhere.It was not automatically reconciled and both organisations say there was nothing wrong with the transaction.

Time to go cashless my friend