Can smart meter be fitted without my permission and when not present at the property?

ArbitraryRandom

Zandoni said:

ArbitraryRandom said:

Zandoni said:

Dolor said:

Zandoni said:

Dolor said:

Zandoni said:

Dolor said:

Zandoni said:

Jonboy_1984 said:

Zandoni said:

I think smart meters are a complete and utter waste of money, scrapping perfectly good working meters is scandalous. Unfortunately though when a meter meets it's ficticious end of life they will be fitted.

Is that scandalous in the same way the weights and measures acts states shop scales and petrol pumps  etc that measure commodities for sale (via devices with moving parts provided by the vendor) must be kept accurate, or some other definition of scandalous???

I can tell you as a fact that the diaphragm meters that were replaced are far more accurate than the electronic meters that are now fitted. I know we have to move with the times but they brought in smart meters far too early and cost the bill payer so much more money.

Again if you bothered to do any research you would see that the NAO has concluded that the cost of the smart meter programme will be higher than the anticipated £12.6Bn; however, given recent increases in the cost of energy, the savings will also be significantly higher. You need to think ‘future’ not the ‘present’.  The savings are based on what we would have paid for energy in future years without smart meters compared to what we might be paying with smart meters.

The whole concept a Smart Grid is better visibility of consumer demand against constantly renewable supply. If the Grid doesn’t have access to profiled usage then it has to have expensive standby generation on call. This has to be paid for even if it is not used/needed.

I don't believe having smart meters will give them anymore help to predict usage than they already know. It will cost the consumers billions and it will never pay for itself.

Yet again, you are choosing to state what you think you know without spending anytime doing a little bit of research.

A large number of consumers are now on Octopus' Agile tariff which has 30 minute changing unit prices. The information that they can obtain from their 30 minute usage graphs enables them to move some usage from periods of low supply and high prices to periods of high supply and low prices. As a result they are saving a lot of money compared to a consumer on a non smart metered tariff.

Thirty minute smart meter usage data not only helps consumers save money but it also helps Grid managers. 

As far as gas meters are concerned, all gas meter types have to meet the same certification criteria.

With the smart grid idea that you like so much, why do they need to know consumer demand at house level? Surely demand in larger areas are all thats needed.

Unlike electricity generated from coal and gas, renewable energy is constantly variable. For example, this time yesterday morning my solar panels were outputting 350W. Looking now, the panels are outputting 3.5kW.  The same applies to wind and the generation from wind turbines.

The greater the visibility that Grid managers have of a consumer’s usage profile the more accurate the forecast is for total electricity demand at all times of the day. As electricity has to be used or stored, Grid managers have, for example,  to make strategic decisions on whether or not to pay wind farm operators to feather the blades on their turbines. Take 5 minutes to look at the links that I provided.

Smart meters also make time-of-use tariffs possible. Canada, for example, has tariffs with 3 periods and 3 unit rates. France and a number of other countries offer power-limited tariffs (max kW not kWh) at a reduced standing charge. 

I’m no convinced at all that measuring demand at individual meters is necessary, they can monitor areas whatever size they need, but individual homes is overkill.

I'd also suggest that measuring demand is only PART of it - the bigger issue is actually matching use to supply. 

There's two options for that: changing the supply side of that equation is harder than changing demand (wind/solar are depending on the environment, and coal/gas/nuclear can't be turned on or off in a minute) but lots of people are happy to shift when they put their washing on or eat dinner if they can save money/you pay them. 

Hence smart meters at the domestic level. 

If you see that as a saving for being flexible or a premium for using what you want when you want... YMMV

Even that I don't see, the rewards for using less at a particular time are far too small to make people bother.

Did you look at the pricing screen shots on the thread? People are literally (and regularly) paying pennies for their electricity, and not infrequently being paid. 

There are numerous people on this forum who have saved hundreds of pounds a year, and I'm not taking the schemes run last winter, I'm talking the standard Agile tariff which has been reliably well under the price cap. 

What amount would you consider 'worth bothering about'?

[Deleted User]

Another smart meter tariff that is well below the Ofgem capped price: Octopus Tracker. No load shifting required. The unit price changes every 24 hours based on wholesale prices:

Zandoni

[Deleted User] said:

Another smart meter tariff that is well below the Ofgem capped price: Octopus Tracker. No load shifting required. The unit price changes every 24 hours based on wholesale prices:

People on here are not your average user, I will have a look when I eventually get them.

mmmmikey

Zandoni said:

ArbitraryRandom said:

Zandoni said:

Dolor said:

Zandoni said:

Dolor said:

Zandoni said:

Dolor said:

Zandoni said:

Jonboy_1984 said:

Zandoni said:

I think smart meters are a complete and utter waste of money, scrapping perfectly good working meters is scandalous. Unfortunately though when a meter meets it's ficticious end of life they will be fitted.

Is that scandalous in the same way the weights and measures acts states shop scales and petrol pumps  etc that measure commodities for sale (via devices with moving parts provided by the vendor) must be kept accurate, or some other definition of scandalous???

I can tell you as a fact that the diaphragm meters that were replaced are far more accurate than the electronic meters that are now fitted. I know we have to move with the times but they brought in smart meters far too early and cost the bill payer so much more money.

Again if you bothered to do any research you would see that the NAO has concluded that the cost of the smart meter programme will be higher than the anticipated £12.6Bn; however, given recent increases in the cost of energy, the savings will also be significantly higher. You need to think ‘future’ not the ‘present’.  The savings are based on what we would have paid for energy in future years without smart meters compared to what we might be paying with smart meters.

The whole concept a Smart Grid is better visibility of consumer demand against constantly renewable supply. If the Grid doesn’t have access to profiled usage then it has to have expensive standby generation on call. This has to be paid for even if it is not used/needed.

I don't believe having smart meters will give them anymore help to predict usage than they already know. It will cost the consumers billions and it will never pay for itself.

Yet again, you are choosing to state what you think you know without spending anytime doing a little bit of research.

A large number of consumers are now on Octopus' Agile tariff which has 30 minute changing unit prices. The information that they can obtain from their 30 minute usage graphs enables them to move some usage from periods of low supply and high prices to periods of high supply and low prices. As a result they are saving a lot of money compared to a consumer on a non smart metered tariff.

Thirty minute smart meter usage data not only helps consumers save money but it also helps Grid managers. 

As far as gas meters are concerned, all gas meter types have to meet the same certification criteria.

With the smart grid idea that you like so much, why do they need to know consumer demand at house level? Surely demand in larger areas are all thats needed.

Unlike electricity generated from coal and gas, renewable energy is constantly variable. For example, this time yesterday morning my solar panels were outputting 350W. Looking now, the panels are outputting 3.5kW.  The same applies to wind and the generation from wind turbines.

The greater the visibility that Grid managers have of a consumer’s usage profile the more accurate the forecast is for total electricity demand at all times of the day. As electricity has to be used or stored, Grid managers have, for example,  to make strategic decisions on whether or not to pay wind farm operators to feather the blades on their turbines. Take 5 minutes to look at the links that I provided.

Smart meters also make time-of-use tariffs possible. Canada, for example, has tariffs with 3 periods and 3 unit rates. France and a number of other countries offer power-limited tariffs (max kW not kWh) at a reduced standing charge. 

I’m no convinced at all that measuring demand at individual meters is necessary, they can monitor areas whatever size they need, but individual homes is overkill.

I'd also suggest that measuring demand is only PART of it - the bigger issue is actually matching use to supply. 

There's two options for that: changing the supply side of that equation is harder than changing demand (wind/solar are depending on the environment, and coal/gas/nuclear can't be turned on or off in a minute) but lots of people are happy to shift when they put their washing on or eat dinner if they can save money/you pay them. 

Hence smart meters at the domestic level. 

If you see that as a saving for being flexible or a premium for using what you want when you want... YMMV

Even that I don't see, the rewards for using less at a particular time are far too small to make people bother.

Hi - to give you an example....

I am currently on Octopus Agile. Over the last 28 days I have paid an average of 15.89p for each kWh I've used. If I had been on their standard variable tariff I would have paid 29.63p/kWh. I don't use much electricity at this time of year and have also been away, but that still amounts to a saving of £19.61 over the 28 day period. 

I would emphasise that these are actual figures that show real savings, not some hypothetical example.

On this basis, I expect my smart meter to save me at least £300 over the next year.

matt_drummer

My smart meter has let me do this.

Since the middle of April this year I have generated £1,200 in credit on my account.

I currently pay £1 a month just as a token DD, I don't expect that to ever change.

I expect to end the winter in credit by around £400.

I could not have done this and carry on doing it without a smart meter.


Oh and I forgot, our hot tub is nice and warm! We don't have to skimp on what we use.

ArbitraryRandom

Zandoni said:

[Deleted User] said:

Another smart meter tariff that is well below the Ofgem capped price: Octopus Tracker. No load shifting required. The unit price changes every 24 hours based on wholesale prices:

People on here are not your average user, I will have a look when I eventually get them.

Agreed, but as smart meters have become more and more common over the last 10 years, time of use/smart tariffs have also become more mainstream and common. 

As more people have solar panels (via schemes or because people want to invest money in making their homes more efficient), and electric cars become more common - so do these tariffs. 

And to make 'a' saving, people don't really even need to change their use all that much - if you have an electric car, you can download an app that charges it at the most efficient time automatically.

Or loading the washing machine and waiting to flick it on when you first get up/after lunch/dinner depending on when the app says is cheap that day (conveniently electric is cheap when the sun is shining and the wind is blowing, which is good laundry weather) ... it's not about sitting in the dark eating cold beans between 3 and 8 and staying up until 1 in the morning to boil the kettle  

EssexHebridean

I do slightly find myself scratching my head wondering what someone who considers a saving of potentially several hundred pounds a year to be not worth bothering with is doing on a money saving forum...

Having just gone from old style meters to smart ones (SMETS 2) upon a house move, I'm entirely delighted with them, and we are already discussing the likelihood of shifting across to either Tracker or Agile once we have properly got our heads around the running costs of the new house, and what the practicalities are of the load shifting. I appreciate that our 20 years of experience of load-shifting as a result of using E7 probably helps here, but even without that, the potential for savings are surely worthy of committing a bit of research time to! 

*edited to add missing words!* 

deano2099

Zandoni said:

I’m no convinced at all that measuring demand at individual meters is necessary, they can monitor areas whatever size they need, but individual homes is overkill.

It's because the difference in individual usage is massive now. If a house does or doesn't have a heat pump, and does or doesn't have an EV, massively changes their usage. Similarly if someone now works at home all day versus an empty property.

It is important, for example, that we ensure most people charge their EVs overnight when demand is low. If they don't, if everyone was charging at 7pm, we'd get an issue. So most EV owners will have tariffs that reflect that and incentivise them to charge the EV overnight. Which are only possible with smart meters.

That's just one example but there are others. And sure, you don't have an EV, so you're not interested in that. Except that, eventually, you will. You may not have a heat pump. But eventually, you will. 

matt_drummer

EssexHebridean said:

I do slightly find myself scratching my head wondering what someone who considers a saving of potentially several hundred pounds a year is doing on a money saving forum...

My setup is worth £5,000 a year or more.

I couldn't do it without a smart meter.

[Deleted User]

People on here are not your average user, I will have a look when I eventually get them.

That’s your choice but these meters are here now and so are the tariffs. Smart Grids are a ‘win win’ situation. Consumers who want to use as much energy as they want, when they want, will inevitably end up paying more than those who are prepared to be flexible.