NPM Northampton - PCN for staying in car for 4 minutes

loftytop15

Hey there,

As the title suggests, I entered an NPM ran car park in northampton on 05/08/2023 to check the one way system direction on my satnav/maps.

My car was parked for 4 minutes 4 seconds an they've issued me a PCN today.
Do they have any grounds for this?
Their reason is "Vehicle not pre-authorised (no E-permit)".

I've seen talk of a grace period, but this by definition is a grace period is for after buying a ticket for an allotted time and once youve ran out of it.

I was simply in my car for 4 minutes checking directions and never got out - do they have reasonable grounds to enforce this ticket?

Feels extremely unfair, is there a standard period for one entering a car park before a decision is made to stay?

I checked and they are an IPC backed firm, so MSE says i should appeal to their system first. I wanted to gather advice here first

Thankyou in advance

fisherjim

Surely you mean you stopped and read the signage realised you couldn't park there and left immediately, but why you entered a scammers paradise to check your sat nav I don't know never go near a private car park if you can help it.

But you are where you are, the newbies start here thread has it all mapped out for you already.

Throwawaycheesecake

You have your own consideration period before you 'parked' whether they like it or not. You need time to read the terms and conditions and leave if you cannot park there. 

It is hard to argue you accepted the terms and conditions when you didn't leave the car. After 4 minutes I would say you considered and declined by leaving.
npmservices.co.uk/enforcement-uploader/
Interestingly NPM's own website suggests ticketing after 5 min at minimum (when self-ticketing) 

Check if the letter is POFA compliant, if not do not admit who was driving! 

Coupon-mad

Yep, appeal based in no consideration period.

No paying it, even if you lose at the farce IAS.

loftytop15

Thanks all, will keep updated on how the appeal to NPM goes

loftytop15

Throwawaycheesecake said:

You have your own consideration period before you 'parked' whether they like it or not. You need time to read the terms and conditions and leave if you cannot park there. 

It is hard to argue you accepted the terms and conditions when you didn't leave the car. After 4 minutes I would say you considered and declined by leaving.
npmservices.co.uk/enforcement-uploader/
Interestingly NPM's own website suggests ticketing after 5 min at minimum (when self-ticketing) 

Check if the letter is POFA compliant, if not do not admit who was driving! 

It does say on the Notice to Keeper that the notice given is POFA compliant - does this mean i should say im the driver, and that i declined the T&Cs and hence i left?

loftytop15

This is going to be my appeal to NPM.
Should i remove the mitigating circumstances? In the newbies thread it mentions do not use them, but is this for IAS only? (i.e. not this appeal directly to NPM)

• There was insufficient signage.
  

The car park in question has no clear signage to explain what the relevant parking restrictions are on entry. One has to enter the car park to see the signs, upon then realising it was private land…the driver left. The car was in the car park for 4 minutes, and the driver never left the car.

• Mitigating circumstances.

There are mitigating circumstances to explain why the vehicle was parked where it was and the charge should be waived for this reason. The driver was unsure which direction to take on the road to abide for the one-way system of the surrounding roads. So the driver, noticing it was a private land car park, taking very little time to read the T&Cs, then left promptly (within 5 minutes)

• The charge is disproportionate and not commercially justifiable.

The amount you have charged is not based upon any commercially justifiable loss to your company or the landowner.

In this case, the £100 charge you are asking for far exceeds the cost to the landowner of staying in the car park for all of 4 minutes. I therefore feel the charge you have asked for is excessive. 

• The driver never left the vehicle, and only stayed in the car park for 4 minutes before declining the T&Cs and leaving

• No consideration period in this case.

There is no consideration period for this case, NPMs own ticketing system says it should wait 10 minutes for the consideration period, which this obviously hasn’t - https://npmservices.co.uk/enforcement-uploader/

Coupon-mad

Why are you using the awful MSE Parking tickets appeal guide that no-one here says to use?

fisherjim

As CM says that no justifiable loss argument went out of the window years ago, and why are you even mentioning "why the vehicle was parked" they will jump on that as an admission it WAS PARKED which it wasn't!

You seem to be treating these scammers as reasonable understanding people which they aren't stick to facts not woolly descriptions of what happened.

Le_Kirk

You've been given the crux of your initial appeal here Today at 9:22AM <<<<LINK

loftytop15

This was my appeal to them

I dispute your 'parking charge', as the keeper of the vehicle. I deny any liability or contractual agreement and I will be making a complaint about your predatory conduct to your client landowner.

There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. Since your PCN is a vague template, I require an explanation of the allegation and your evidence. You must include a close up actual photograph of the sign you contend was at the location on the material date as well as your images of the vehicle.

If the allegation concerns a PDT machine, the data supplied in response to this appeal must include the record of payments made - showing partial VRNs - and an explanation of the reason for the PCN, because your Notice does not explain it.

If the allegation involves an alleged overstay of minutes, your evidence must include the actual grace period agreed by the landowner.

There is no consideration period for this case, NPMs own ticketing system (https://npmservices.co.uk/enforcement-uploader/) says it should wait 10 minutes for the consideration period, which this obviously hasn’t, as the driver was only stationary for 4 minutes, before realising they shouldn’t have been there and left immediately