Lebara free roaming doesn't include calls to EU numbers

savergrant

glocal said:

Clearly, the industry hasn't changed the time-honoured definition of free roaming. In fact, Lebara know that. Not only do they try hard to confuse the point but they appear to deliberately mislead MSE. When the MSE Team contacted Lebara for an explanation following my report, Lebara replied with this (I quoted it earlier in this thread too): 

While Roaming in an EU country, Lebara customers can call landlines and mobiles of that EU country as per their UK national allowance. So example, a person on a typical 5GB plan with Unlimited UK mins & texts while travelling in Italy can use 5GB data + use their unlimited UK mins and texts allowance to call landlines and mobiles in Italy at no extra cost.

 You say you quote from this earlier in the thread but I can't find it.

What I can see is this;

'This means that you can use the data and minutes included in your allowance in the EU at no extra cost.'

And also this;

'We've asked Lebara and it's confirmed that whilst you're in one of its roaming destinations, you can call numbers within that destination (landlines and mobiles) and is taken from your allowance as normal, without charge.'

There is no mention there of 'unlimited UK minutes', rather that it is taken from 'your allowance as normal'. The implication is that you are not disadvantaged by calling from another country and are able to use the telephony service just as if you were in uk. If you are outside a roaming partner country however you may incur additional charges or be restricted as to which services you can use. 

Can you quote the reference where someone has told you that you would be using your UK allowance to make non-uk calls whilst abroad?

zagfles

savergrant said:

The lebara offers I am seeing on mse say 'UK minutes' and 'uk texts'. I don't think it is reasonable to believe that a call made in a different country to a non-uk number could be considered 'uk minutes'. And I believe roaming means connecting to a partner network when you are beyond the geographical boundaries of your own carrier. Lebara are not charging for roaming as they are allowing you to access all of your allowances in the same way as if you were in uk.

It seems even more unreasonable to believe that "international minutes" are used up by a call that is not "international". If you're in Greece and call a Greek number that call is obviously not "international".

I've always assumed "free roaming" means you can make local calls for the same rates/using the same allowances as in the UK, as that's how it's always worked with all the tariffs I've used. Just checked with 1pmobile, and it's even better than that, you can call anywhere in the EU for 1p/min, not just the country you're in plus the UK, whereas in the UK you'd get charged 9p/min for calling an EU country.

glocal

zagfles said:

I've always assumed "free roaming" means you can make local calls for the same rates/using the same allowances as in the UK, as that's how it's always worked with all the tariffs I've used. 

The millions of people who have been using free roaming for fifteen years or so, industry, regulators, even Lebara themselves know you are right to assume this.

Just checked with 1pmobile, and it's even better than that, you can call anywhere in the EU for 1p/min, not just the country you're in plus the UK, whereas in the UK you'd get charged 9p/min for calling an EU country.

That is the standard definition of 'free roaming' (and often includes selected non-EU destination as well) -- see my earlier message and example T&Cs from iD Mobile and Plusnet.

glocal

savergrant said:

Can you quote the reference where someone has told you that you would be using your UK allowance to make non-uk calls whilst abroad?

Yes, of course. See the message I posted on 1 August at 3:35PM (edited 1 August at 3:46PM) above. Look for the paragraph starting with 'EDIT:' at the bottom. That was Lebara's reply that MSE Clare emailed me on 1 August. I replied to MSE Clare immediately explaining that what Lebara told them was not true and I provided the evidence for that. Amazingly, Lebara were still trying to mislead the MSE team and consumers after they were caught. I also replied to MSE_Chris above.

MSE Clare's message to me also shows that the MSE team and Lebara acknowledge that the standard definition of free roaming includes local calls while you are in an EU country. As we established above, we knew what the accepted definition was, but MSE and Lebara confirm they know it too.

For your convenience, here is the relevant part of the email MSE Clare sent me:

We clarified this with Lebara and they have said:
 
While Roaming in an EU country, Lebara customers can call landlines and mobiles of that EU country as per their UK national allowance.
So example, a person on a typical 5GB plan with Unlimited UK mins & texts while travelling in Italy can use 5GB data + use their unlimited UK mins and texts allowance to call landlines and mobiles in Italy at no extra cost.
 
The only restriction we have on roaming is for any one on an unlimited plan – where data used can be used up to 30GB, after which customer can buy a roaming bolt on.
 
Hope that clears this up for you.

savergrant

OK, thanks.
Yes I would agree this statement is misleading:
'While Roaming in an EU country, Lebara customers can call landlines and mobiles of that EU country as per their UK national allowance.'

As uk national allowance would seem to mean minutes to a UK number.

savergrant

"It seems even more unreasonable to believe that "international minutes" are used up by a call that is not "international". If you're in Greece and call a Greek number that call is obviously not "international".'

I would disagree in that you would be using a UK sim to make calls to a non-uk number.
If you had a friend visiting from overseas and using their home country sim and you called them would you consider that an 'international call'? Conversely if you called your next door neighbour's mobile only to find they were in Australia would you be happy to be charged for an international call?

Just out of interest does anyone know lebara's policy on receiving calls whilst abroad?

mr_mf

savergrant said:

"It seems even more unreasonable to believe that "international minutes" are used up by a call that is not "international". If you're in Greece and call a Greek number that call is obviously not "international".'

I would disagree in that you would be using a UK sim to make calls to a non-uk number.
If you had a friend visiting from overseas and using their home country sim and you called them would you consider that an 'international call'? Conversely if you called your next door neighbour's mobile only to find they were in Australia would you be happy to be charged for an international call?

Just out of interest does anyone know lebara's policy on receiving calls whilst abroad?

Incoming calls and texts are included - UK rates/free.  The web site says that texts whilst roaming are also free, but when I was in Finland last year and texted a number in Finland they weren't; I got charged and it came out of my PAYG balance - this may have changed though, but the whole area does feel a bit of a mess!

savergrant

Good point about texts, there is no allowance for texts to international numbers although texts to UK mobiles should be within your allowance if you are texting from a country included in their roaming zone.

So to sum up, lebara includes roaming in all its monthly bundles, which allows you to;
Make calls/texts to UK numbers counted as per your UK allowance;
Receive calls from uk whilst abroad without charge;
Use data as if you were in uk up to certain limits;
Make calls/texts to non-uk numbers at the same cost basis as if you were in uk.

So clearly they are taking the p?

For some reason other networks give you terms which make it to your advantage to use your phone outside your own country, then accuse customers of abusing 'fair usage' policies when they do.

zagfles

savergrant said:

"It seems even more unreasonable to believe that "international minutes" are used up by a call that is not "international". If you're in Greece and call a Greek number that call is obviously not "international".'

I would disagree in that you would be using a UK sim to make calls to a non-uk number.
If you had a friend visiting from overseas and using their home country sim and you called them would you consider that an 'international call'? Conversely if you called your next door neighbour's mobile only to find they were in Australia would you be happy to be charged for an international call?

Just out of interest does anyone know lebara's policy on receiving calls whilst abroad?

If you phone any mobile number you obviously can't always know where that number will be physically located, so clearly you should be charged at the tariff of the number you dialled. Anything else would be ridiculous. So phoning a UK number when you're in the UK should obviously not be charged at international rates as you don't know (or might not know) that the recipient is abroad. The recipient may have to pay for international routing if they get charged for incoming calls.

But if you're phoning out while roaming, you know, your network knows, and the foreign network you've roamed onto knows where you are. So if you make a call to a Greek number while in Greece, there is no excuse for treating that as an "international" call. A roaming call, obviously, as it's a UK SIM. But not an "international" call.

savergrant

zagfles said:

savergrant said:

"It seems even more unreasonable to believe that "international minutes" are used up by a call that is not "international". If you're in Greece and call a Greek number that call is obviously not "international".'

I would disagree in that you would be using a UK sim to make calls to a non-uk number.
If you had a friend visiting from overseas and using their home country sim and you called them would you consider that an 'international call'? Conversely if you called your next door neighbour's mobile only to find they were in Australia would you be happy to be charged for an international call?

Just out of interest does anyone know lebara's policy on receiving calls whilst abroad?

If you phone any mobile number you obviously can't always know where that number will be physically located, so clearly you should be charged at the tariff of the number you dialled. Anything else would be ridiculous. So phoning a UK number when you're in the UK should obviously not be charged at international rates as you don't know (or might not know) that the recipient is abroad. The recipient may have to pay for international routing if they get charged for incoming calls.

But if you're phoning out while roaming, you know, your network knows, and the foreign network you've roamed onto knows where you are. So if you make a call to a Greek number while in Greece, there is no excuse for treating that as an "international" call. A roaming call, obviously, as it's a UK SIM. But not an "international" call.

OK. But then if you are abroad you know you are abroad (unless you are very close to a border) so calling a uk number would be an international call? You will be aware that you are calling a number based in a country other than the one you are in.

From mse guide:

What is roaming?

'Roaming' is what it's called when your phone connects to a mobile network in another country. UK mobile network providers have agreements in place with providers in other countries, so that you don't lose connection when you go abroad. 

That would suggest to me that roaming means being able to use your phone, and 'free roaming' means being able to connect to a partner network without additional charge. It wouldn't, to me, mean you can use your phone without any charges, any more than 'free cash machine' dispenses free cash.

To the best of my knowledge there is no such thing as 'a roaming call'.