Lebara free roaming doesn't include calls to EU numbers

zagfles

savergrant said:

zagfles said:

savergrant said:

"It seems even more unreasonable to believe that "international minutes" are used up by a call that is not "international". If you're in Greece and call a Greek number that call is obviously not "international".'

I would disagree in that you would be using a UK sim to make calls to a non-uk number.
If you had a friend visiting from overseas and using their home country sim and you called them would you consider that an 'international call'? Conversely if you called your next door neighbour's mobile only to find they were in Australia would you be happy to be charged for an international call?

Just out of interest does anyone know lebara's policy on receiving calls whilst abroad?

If you phone any mobile number you obviously can't always know where that number will be physically located, so clearly you should be charged at the tariff of the number you dialled. Anything else would be ridiculous. So phoning a UK number when you're in the UK should obviously not be charged at international rates as you don't know (or might not know) that the recipient is abroad. The recipient may have to pay for international routing if they get charged for incoming calls.

But if you're phoning out while roaming, you know, your network knows, and the foreign network you've roamed onto knows where you are. So if you make a call to a Greek number while in Greece, there is no excuse for treating that as an "international" call. A roaming call, obviously, as it's a UK SIM. But not an "international" call.

OK. But then if you are abroad you know you are abroad (unless you are very close to a border) so calling a uk number would be an international call? You will be aware that you are calling a number based in a country other than the one you are in.

Clearly.

From mse guide:

What is roaming?

'Roaming' is what it's called when your phone connects to a mobile network in another country. UK mobile network providers have agreements in place with providers in other countries, so that you don't lose connection when you go abroad. 

That would suggest to me that roaming means being able to use your phone, and 'free roaming' means being able to connect to a partner network without additional charge. It wouldn't, to me, mean you can use your phone without any charges, any more than 'free cash machine' dispenses free cash.

To the best of my knowledge there is no such thing as 'a roaming call'.

As above, "free roaming" has been well established as meaning being able to make in-country calls, and calls to the UK, for the same price or using the same allowance as in-country/UK calls when at home.

savergrant

zagfles said:

savergrant said:

zagfles said:

savergrant said:

"It seems even more unreasonable to believe that "international minutes" are used up by a call that is not "international". If you're in Greece and call a Greek number that call is obviously not "international".'

I would disagree in that you would be using a UK sim to make calls to a non-uk number.
If you had a friend visiting from overseas and using their home country sim and you called them would you consider that an 'international call'? Conversely if you called your next door neighbour's mobile only to find they were in Australia would you be happy to be charged for an international call?

Just out of interest does anyone know lebara's policy on receiving calls whilst abroad?

If you phone any mobile number you obviously can't always know where that number will be physically located, so clearly you should be charged at the tariff of the number you dialled. Anything else would be ridiculous. So phoning a UK number when you're in the UK should obviously not be charged at international rates as you don't know (or might not know) that the recipient is abroad. The recipient may have to pay for international routing if they get charged for incoming calls.

But if you're phoning out while roaming, you know, your network knows, and the foreign network you've roamed onto knows where you are. So if you make a call to a Greek number while in Greece, there is no excuse for treating that as an "international" call. A roaming call, obviously, as it's a UK SIM. But not an "international" call.

OK. But then if you are abroad you know you are abroad (unless you are very close to a border) so calling a uk number would be an international call? You will be aware that you are calling a number based in a country other than the one you are in.

Clearly.

From mse guide:

What is roaming?

'Roaming' is what it's called when your phone connects to a mobile network in another country. UK mobile network providers have agreements in place with providers in other countries, so that you don't lose connection when you go abroad. 

That would suggest to me that roaming means being able to use your phone, and 'free roaming' means being able to connect to a partner network without additional charge. It wouldn't, to me, mean you can use your phone without any charges, any more than 'free cash machine' dispenses free cash.

To the best of my knowledge there is no such thing as 'a roaming call'.

As above, "free roaming" has been well established as meaning being able to make in-country calls, and calls to the UK, for the same price or using the same allowance as in-country/UK calls when at home.

That is rather a case of having your cake and eating it. If you are in a different country to the one your sim is based in you then effectively double the size of your included network.
From what I can make out of the EU regulation 'roam like at home' means that you should not pay more to use your phone in a partner country than were you calling from your home country. It does not dictate that all EU countries are considered to be one territory and ban 'international' call rates.

Scenario, Scotland becomes independent. Phone networks separate and you use your disUK sim in Carlisle to call a restaurant in Glasgow. International? You hop over to Gretna and call the restaurant again, then call your mum in Carlisle to say what time you're eating. International?

If I travel abroad on a uk passport I retain the rights and responsibilities of being a uk citizen. I don't suddenly become a local because I am 'roaming'.

Lebara is a budget operator and for £5 pm ish you get a package including 100 international minutes. Looking at their rates you are charged about 4p per min if you go over your allowance. Hardly breaking the bank stuff!

glocal

savergrant said:

That is rather a case of having your cake and eating it.

Free roaming (including calls within and between selected countries) exists 15 years or so. Lebara doesn't offer it to UK customers but it does to EU customers because they have to under EU rules. Apparently, they still offer it to EU customers travelling to the UK. It is still offered to UK customers by many of Lebara's budget competitors in the UK, and I am not aware of plans for this to change -- see MSE's list.

So, free roaming is not exactly unthinkable. But what we personally think is reasonable is not the point of this thread.

[...]

Lebara is a budget operator and for £5 pm ish you get a package including 100 international minutes. Looking at their rates you are charged about 4p per min if you go over your allowance. Hardly breaking the bank stuff!

There are many budget competitors that offer similar value and free roaming as standard -- eg iD Mobile's 'proper' free roaming covers 46 countries (all Band 1 countries, not just the EU). But that's not the point either.

The point is that Lebara was caught lying to consumers and the MSE team, and they still do, even when explicitly challenged by the MSE team. The result is that consumers are out of pocket and out of options while abroad, and Lebara distort the market getting an unfair advantage over competitors that genuinely offer free roaming. MSE's credibility is affected too. At the end of the day, this thread alerts forumites. ASA, National Trading Standards and MSE will decide whether Lebara's strategy is legitimate or not.

savergrant

I'll take your word for what lebara offer in other countries as it is far beyond my language skills to sift through t&c's. I don't know anything about mobile markets in other countries to know how their offering to customers living there compares with lebara uk/gb offering. I agree that the message you quote would seem to support the belief that calling a parisian restaurant while in Paris would be treated as a uk internal call but I feel that simply reading lebara's offering and their published t&c's would not support that belief. Under their t&c's you can make a call to any number and be charged the same rate whether you are in uk or any of the roaming partner countries. For me using a UK sim to call a non-uk number will always be an international call, regardless of proximity.

glocal

savergrant said:

I'll take your word for what lebara offer in other countries as it is far beyond my language skills to sift through t&c's.

The link I quoted takes you to Lebara's Dutch service and the page is in English.

I agree that the message you quote would seem to support the belief that calling a parisian restaurant while in Paris would be treated as a uk internal call but I feel that simply reading lebara's offering and their published t&c's would not support that belief.

Lebara's publicity and T&Cs say the same thing as their email reply if they are read in the context of what industry, regulators, consumers, MSE and even Lebara themselves historically understand as free roaming. ASA and other regulators' past rulings confirm that context matters. It's not a matter of personal interpretation. All Lebara had to do was be clear about what they offer rather than deliberately mislead everyone.

zagfles

savergrant said:

zagfles said:

savergrant said:

zagfles said:

savergrant said:

"It seems even more unreasonable to believe that "international minutes" are used up by a call that is not "international". If you're in Greece and call a Greek number that call is obviously not "international".'

I would disagree in that you would be using a UK sim to make calls to a non-uk number.
If you had a friend visiting from overseas and using their home country sim and you called them would you consider that an 'international call'? Conversely if you called your next door neighbour's mobile only to find they were in Australia would you be happy to be charged for an international call?

Just out of interest does anyone know lebara's policy on receiving calls whilst abroad?

If you phone any mobile number you obviously can't always know where that number will be physically located, so clearly you should be charged at the tariff of the number you dialled. Anything else would be ridiculous. So phoning a UK number when you're in the UK should obviously not be charged at international rates as you don't know (or might not know) that the recipient is abroad. The recipient may have to pay for international routing if they get charged for incoming calls.

But if you're phoning out while roaming, you know, your network knows, and the foreign network you've roamed onto knows where you are. So if you make a call to a Greek number while in Greece, there is no excuse for treating that as an "international" call. A roaming call, obviously, as it's a UK SIM. But not an "international" call.

OK. But then if you are abroad you know you are abroad (unless you are very close to a border) so calling a uk number would be an international call? You will be aware that you are calling a number based in a country other than the one you are in.

Clearly.

From mse guide:

What is roaming?

'Roaming' is what it's called when your phone connects to a mobile network in another country. UK mobile network providers have agreements in place with providers in other countries, so that you don't lose connection when you go abroad. 

That would suggest to me that roaming means being able to use your phone, and 'free roaming' means being able to connect to a partner network without additional charge. It wouldn't, to me, mean you can use your phone without any charges, any more than 'free cash machine' dispenses free cash.

To the best of my knowledge there is no such thing as 'a roaming call'.

As above, "free roaming" has been well established as meaning being able to make in-country calls, and calls to the UK, for the same price or using the same allowance as in-country/UK calls when at home.

That is rather a case of having your cake and eating it. If you are in a different country to the one your sim is based in you then effectively double the size of your included network.

Of course you do. Free roaming is a "perk" some operators offer, many don't now. They are free not to offer it now, as many networks don't, but if they offer it with a different definition to what everyone else uses and make misleading statements about it then that's the issue. Not how much it costs, or whether they are good value or not, or whether it complies with (now irrelavant) EU regulations.

I use 1p mobile and it when in the UK it would cost 9p/min to make a call to an EU country. When I'm roaming it costs 1p/min, to call anywhere in the EU or the UK, and if you have a boost that can be used. Subject to quite reasonable fair usage as usual. I pay about £3 a month, and they provide something that exceeds the traditional definition of "free roaming". It was similar with other tariffs I've had in the past. It was cheaper to use the phone when EU roaming than when at home!

savergrant

glocal said:

savergrant said:

I'll take your word for what lebara offer in other countries as it is far beyond my language skills to sift through t&c's.

The link I quoted takes you to Lebara's Dutch service and the page is in English.

I agree that the message you quote would seem to support the belief that calling a parisian restaurant while in Paris would be treated as a uk internal call but I feel that simply reading lebara's offering and their published t&c's would not support that belief.

Lebara's publicity and T&Cs say the same thing as their email reply if they are read in the context of what industry, regulators, consumers, MSE and even Lebara themselves historically understand as free roaming. ASA and other regulators' past rulings confirm that context matters. It's not a matter of personal interpretation. All Lebara had to do was be clear about what they offer rather than deliberately mislead everyone.

Moneysupermarket quotes;

"What are roaming charges?

The term ‘roaming charges’ refers to the higher prices that mobile networks typically charge for using your phone overseas. 

Depending on the country you’re visiting and your network’s roaming policy, you may have to pay more to make calls, send texts and use mobile data."

So a roaming charge is where you have to pay more to use your phone if you are roaming than the same usage would cost in your home country. So 'free roaming' would imply NO ADDITIONAL CHARGES, it would not imply a reduction to the usual charges. I would wonder how much it costs your home network to provide the call if it is cheaper for you to call from another country than from home. To be fair though using lebara on payg and calling a uk number is about the most expensive thing you can do at a staggering 25p per minute. So I don't really understand how you can use the same sim to call India at 4p per minute.