Help needed: multiple tickets in a row for parking outside my own house

Coupon-mad

happysoul99 said:

What do you all think about my chances in court given all of the information that I've presented?

Do you still think that it is winnable, or, if I were to lose: the total amount I would have to pay out reduced to something more reasonable?

I am happy to fight on. I just want to be sure that given all the effort and the anxiety involved that I come off better in the end.

You have a very good case and we see wins reported here 99% of the time, as the NEWBIES sticky thread already tells you (second post is all about court and includes a simple Template Defence Resource).

Even people who lose pay less than the claim.  And with the law changing after this month's final Public Consultation, claims from parking firms should be less likely IMHO.

Your timing is good.

Same month as the Public Consultation, to finally get the new statutory rules over the line and shut the PPC scammers' bleating up.

Coupon-mad

happysoul99 said:

Dear All,

I have been living in a residential area for many years. Each property has their own allocated space, but there is plenty of available parking spaces on unlined roads for some of us who own an additional vehicle. Most of the residents in my estate do.

The estate management company has recently introduced parking restrictions on one of the roads. The private parking management company has been engaged to implement this and they've been putting up confusing signs. 

None of the residents living in the area (except for the ones on the actual road which is adjacent to mine) have been informed about such restrictions and neither did they advertise the day these would start being enforced.

Suddenly about 3 weeks after these signs were put up they've started issuing PCN's via the post. Most people didn't even realise that the enforcement had commenced until they started receiving tickets through the post.

The residents of the adjacent streets whose road was now restricted but appear to have known about the enforcement date, started parking on our road, rather than pay for a resident permit which was now required of them.

Needless to say we parked on their road. What followed was carnage (pun intended). That unlined road is now completely empty, whereas the adjacent roads are now completely full.

I digress, but what I am left with now is a number of PCNs issued by a private parking firm who are a member of IPC. 

I have appealed one of the tickets in anger, where I described the situation: i.e. not knowing about this sudden change and appealed for them to have understanding and cancel the tickets.

Having read the newbies forum, I later understood that I didn't do the appeal correctly. I didn't include any information on how the signs were confusing, the charges for example were hidden in the small print, the only prominent lettering displayed "Private Land" which we all knew to be the case all along. I also imply in the appeal that I was the driver (I wasn't, it was my missus but she had no idea either).

Reading the Newbies forum I understand that appealing to IAS/IPC regulated Parking firms is pointless. 

What do you suggest that I do? Should I appeal all the other PCN's? And if I do, would my previous appeal undermine my new appeal for the other tickets issued under similar circumstances?

How likely am I to win in court should these make it that far? And would this be a single court case or multiple for each PCN?

many thanks for you time reading this,

yours sincerely

The Managing Agents aren't FirstPort by any chance, are they?  I think they were also on Watchdog a few months ago for ruining another estate with a totally unwanted and unneeded 'parking scheme'.

Even if not Firstport, read this article I posted about tonight, for fighting inspiration:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/80164973/#Comment_80164973

happysoul99

Coupon-mad said:

happysoul99 said:

Dear All,

I have been living in a residential area for many years. Each property has their own allocated space, but there is plenty of available parking spaces on unlined roads for some of us who own an additional vehicle. Most of the residents in my estate do.

The estate management company has recently introduced parking restrictions on one of the roads. The private parking management company has been engaged to implement this and they've been putting up confusing signs. 

None of the residents living in the area (except for the ones on the actual road which is adjacent to mine) have been informed about such restrictions and neither did they advertise the day these would start being enforced.

Suddenly about 3 weeks after these signs were put up they've started issuing PCN's via the post. Most people didn't even realise that the enforcement had commenced until they started receiving tickets through the post.

The residents of the adjacent streets whose road was now restricted but appear to have known about the enforcement date, started parking on our road, rather than pay for a resident permit which was now required of them.

Needless to say we parked on their road. What followed was carnage (pun intended). That unlined road is now completely empty, whereas the adjacent roads are now completely full.

I digress, but what I am left with now is a number of PCNs issued by a private parking firm who are a member of IPC. 

I have appealed one of the tickets in anger, where I described the situation: i.e. not knowing about this sudden change and appealed for them to have understanding and cancel the tickets.

Having read the newbies forum, I later understood that I didn't do the appeal correctly. I didn't include any information on how the signs were confusing, the charges for example were hidden in the small print, the only prominent lettering displayed "Private Land" which we all knew to be the case all along. I also imply in the appeal that I was the driver (I wasn't, it was my missus but she had no idea either).

Reading the Newbies forum I understand that appealing to IAS/IPC regulated Parking firms is pointless. 

What do you suggest that I do? Should I appeal all the other PCN's? And if I do, would my previous appeal undermine my new appeal for the other tickets issued under similar circumstances?

How likely am I to win in court should these make it that far? And would this be a single court case or multiple for each PCN?

many thanks for you time reading this,

yours sincerely

The Managing Agents aren't FirstPort by any chance, are they?  I think they were also on Watchdog a few months ago for ruining another estate with a totally unwanted and unneeded 'parking scheme'.

Even if not Firstport, read this article I posted about tonight, for fighting inspiration:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/80164973/#Comment_80164973

They are not the managing agents that introduced parking restrictions.

Mouse007

Your case is good, but you need to understand contract law to present it.

A contract is an agreement. Such agreements MUST include:

An offer
Acceptance of that offer
Consideration - something of value must pass both ways and
Intention to create legally binding obligations.

Agreements meeting those conditions are enforceable in law.

On first sight it is difficult to see how words on a sign can create a contract, but they do if they contain an offer which you accept by your actions.

Your signs do not actually contain an offer, they do not say you may park here for £100. They do not say you may park here for 2 hours only and leave and pay £100 if you don’t.

The second example contains an offer, you may park here for 2 hours. It contains consideration, you will vacate within 2 hours (value to the landowner by freeing up the space for someone else) and pay £100 if you don’t.

Your signs are what is known as forbidding, they contain no offer - you must not park here without a permit. PERMIT HOLDERS ONLY is not an offer.

By parking you were not agreeing to a contractual term, you were potentially trespassing. That is a completely different area of law. No sign can set out contractual terms for trespass.

When a claim comes in I guarantee they will claim you had a contractual obligation, you agreed to pay. I’ve lost count of the numbers here recoiling against that statement in the particulars of claim saying I never agreed to any such thing.

Your defence will be to establish (show) no contract existed. No contract was created by the words on those signs.

To do that you need to understand the very basics of contract law. What is required to create a contract. Google this, google it a lot. The results will repeat what I have said above, offer, acceptance, consideration and intention to create legally binding obligations.

On the day, if it comes, you will be on your own and you need to be case ready.

Turning to your lease and those terms - I don’t see an easy path. Others may be better placed than I to guide you there. But the signs are you killer argument, if you can master the subject matter - contract law - you should walk it in court.

happysoul99

Hello All,

It took a while, but it seems that they now want to take me to court.

It also appears that they have decided to split this into multiple claims. This particular letter (attached at the bottom) is for the first two days. I am thus expecting more to come my way.

I am posting this here for information. I have read the second post on the newbies forum, and I am a little confused as to whether I should respond to them using the Generic Template or not. 


thank you

happysoul99

Apologies, I appear to have missed the crucial bit of information in that post: "search for their email". 

I will prepare a response and post it on here for for approval before I email it to them

thank you

happysoul99

As per instructions, I will send this email on December 28th to disputeresolution@bwlegal.co.uk. Which is the deadline they set out for me to respond by.

I was not able to verify on their site that that's their correct email address. Is this something they hide on purpose?

Dear Sirs,

Your Ref. ############

Proposed Legal Proceedings

Claimant: BW Legal

I refer to your your letter of claim.

I confirm that my address for service for the time being - assuming you don't faff about and delay any claim - is as follows, and any older address must be erased from your records:

[Correct address here]

The alleged debt is disputed and any court proceedings will be vigorously defended.

I am sourcing and seeking independent debt advice and as such, I formally request that this matter be put on hold for an additional 30 days, in accordance with the Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims 2017 ('the PAP').

I note that the amount being claimed has increased by a hugely exaggerated amount which the Government called "extorting money from motorists".

Don't send me your usual blather about that.

I have two questions, and under the PAP I am entitled to specific answers:

1. Am I to understand that the additional £120 represents what you lot dress up as a 'Debt Recovery' fee, and if so, is this net or inclusive of VAT? If the latter, would you kindly explain why I am being asked to pay the operator’s VAT?

2. With regard to the principal alleged PCN sum: Is this damages, or will it be pleaded as consideration for parking?

Yours faithfully

happysoul99

Hello all, 
Just for the record, the BW Legal have responded to my email above and I attach their response below.

prowla

Presumably their calling it a "Penalty Charge Notice" could be used against them in any court proceedings?

Coupon-mad

happysoul99 said:

Hello all, 
Just for the record, the BW Legal have responded to my email above and I attach their response below.

Dear BW Legal,

Have you deliberately swerved the questions?

I'm well aware what a PARKING Charge Notice is not subject to VAT (at the present time, at least) but I wasn't asking about VAT on the 'PCN' sum, in my first question.

I was asking about the VAT arrangements relating to the 'extortionate' DRA fee because I need to understand that aspect.

I repeat:

I have two questions, and under the PAP I am entitled to specific answers:

1. Am I to understand that the additional £120 represents what you lot dress up as a 'Debt Recovery' fee, and if so, is this net or inclusive of VAT? If the latter, would you kindly explain why I am being asked to pay the operator’s VAT?

2. With regard to the principal alleged PCN sum: Is this damages, or will it be pleaded as consideration for parking?

By the way, it's not a 'Penalty' Charge so maybe you are new to this bottom-dwelling model?  Either way, I expect a response answering the two questions properly and a 30 day hold. See the PAP.  i suggest you read it or seek legal advice.

Yours faithfully,