Gas Meter Still Increasing Whilst Gas Isolated (Siemens/Landis+Gyr E6S)

km1500

wish it worked the same way with bank accounts

Sea_Shell

CSI_Yorkshire said:

That's a new one - "of course the meter counts up when the isolation valve is closed, because it's counting the gas that's already in your house"

So how much gas (by volume) could potentially be "trapped" between the valve and the meter, which then seeps through once the valve is closed?  Especially if pressure is reduced up stream.

Enough for the above readings? 

CSI_Yorkshire

Sea_Shell said:

CSI_Yorkshire said:

That's a new one - "of course the meter counts up when the isolation valve is closed, because it's counting the gas that's already in your house"

So how much gas (by volume) could potentially be "trapped" between the valve and the meter, which then seeps through once the valve is closed?  Especially if pressure is reduced up stream.

Enough for the above readings? 

Lets take a standard 22mm supply pipe.  That's an internal cross-sectional area of about 320 sq.mm..  Lets call it 350 to be generous.

At the meter (because it's after the regulator), gas pressure is something like +25mbar and any physical compression is small and can be neglected.

How much pipe is between the valve and the meter?  50cm?

So then you've got 50cm x 350 sq.mm of volume that (if you took the pipe down to vacuum) could pass through the meter - obviously you're not actually going to vacuum, you're just dropping to ambient pressure, so this will give a massive overestimate.

0.5m x 0.00035m2 = 0.000175m3 of gas in that 50cm of pipe - so on a metric meter it would change the reading by 0,000175 (and they don't have that many decimal places), and on a 00cu.ft meter by 0.000062 (if my maths was correct).

edit:  I'm making that calculation up on the fly, so I could be miles off - feel free to correct me!

QrizB

Sea_Shell said:

CSI_Yorkshire said:

That's a new one - "of course the meter counts up when the isolation valve is closed, because it's counting the gas that's already in your house"

So how much gas (by volume) could potentially be "trapped" between the valve and the meter, which then seeps through once the valve is closed?  Especially if pressure is reduced up stream.

Enough for the above readings? 

Well, according to the OP:

MeteredOut said:

Interesting response from EDF today (they have reviewed the videos)

Thank you for the links to the videos, I have viewed both of these. I can see on the first video the meter read shows as 30117 502 and changes to 30117 507 within approximately 5 minutes. The second video shows the read has advanced to 30117 674 and this was taken approximately 15 minutes later. As we have advised previously, this would just be the gas flowing through the pipes from the meter to appliances as pressure in the internal system will still draw gas through until all gas in the pipes have been used. This can continue to flow for around 30 minutes. 

I've now sent them photos from a 2 1/4 hour period on the same day when the gas meter was isolated and the readings went up by over 1 unit (around 12kWh) and have reiterated that I firmly believe the meter is faulty and requires testing.

• 30117.502 to .505 is five litres.
• 340117.502 to 30117.674 is 172 litres.
• "Over one unit" is at least a cubic metre.

A metre of 22mm copper pipe has a volume of approx. 380cc - 0.38 litres.

I don't know how exactly much pipe there is between the OP's valve and meter, but from the photos it looks to be much less than a metre - and certainly not the (nearly) three kilometres that it would take to hold a cubic metre of gas!

CSI_Yorkshire

Much more succinct QrizB - thanks! 

Sea_Shell

Ammunition for the OP then!

Blows EDFs "explanation" out of the water.

(I was just thinking out loud)

Zandoni

Let’s not be silly here, with the valve closed there can only be a very negligible gas usage as there will be no pressure to pass the gas through to the burners and a vacuum would be created.

Stuart_

Hello,

I'm sorry to hear that you're experiencing the exact same situation to the one I had, with the exact same type of meter. You're right to be diligent in your efforts to get this resolved, as it could indeed be a fault with your meter that has gone unnoticed for some time., perhaps years.

Your suspicion regarding the meter is bolstered by the fact that you have observed it incrementing even when all gas appliances are off. The intermittent nature of this issue makes it even trickier to diagnose, as it might not be evident during a technician's visit.

What worked for me was documenting substantial video evidence. Record videos of your meter incrementing when the gas is off; this was a crucial piece of evidence that helped me make my case. It might be worthwhile to keep a detailed log of gas meter readings, when you've had the gas off, and the corresponding videos you took. This will help you clearly illustrate the issue over time, even if it is intermittent.

When it comes to dealing with EDF, prepare for persistence. As you've already experienced, this might involve numerous emails and phone calls. In my case, EDF arranged for my meter to be tested but it was lost en route. They then claimed there was nothing wrong with the meter, despite my secondary evidence. Thankfully, the ombudsman ruled in my favor based on my evidence.

I can't post links here yet as I'm too new, but if you google "ray cope incrementing" you will see the evidence presented to parliment about this type of meter in 2013!

"In the nineties we saw the introduction of ultrasonic meters manufactured by Eurometer and Siemens. The former British Gas pic had pioneered ultrasonic meters and financially backed an electronics company called “Gill Electronics” to develop a meter. Eurometer subsequently put this meter into production under licence to British Gas plc. There was undue haste with the installation of these meters for reasons best known to the former British Gas plc. The Eurometer soon developed serious faults in service and to a very much lesser degree so did the Siemens model. The faults were called “incrementing” which was a polite way of saying they could record gas that was not bein g used. Yet another overbilling problem. The “increments” were random and could be large or small. What was perhaps the most mystifying to gas consumers and gas engineers alike was the phenomenon of these meters registering when they were not connected to the gas supply! Modification to the design of these meters has eradicated this problem to the best of our knowledge and they now display an amazing level of accuracy—there is virtually no evidence of drift. It is unfortunate that the teething problems with ultrasonics has put them back years and possibly sidelined them for the foreseeable future. Transco no longer purchase them except for a small quantity of Eurometer semi-concealed meters and trial’s with the new Siemens prepayment meter."

The issue you're experiencing is a recognized problem specifically associated with Ultrasonic E6 gas meters.

If you conduct an online search using the terms "ray cope incrementing guardian", it will lead you to a Guardian article that sheds light on how an incrementing malfunction with this kind of meter resulted in an exorbitant gas bill of £26,000.

If you conduct an online search for E6 gas meter issues, you'll discover several individuals who have encountered the same problem. I've also had the opportunity to converse with Ray Cope, who has assisted numerous people facing the same issue.

In my personal experience, I received a gas bill of £7,000 due to the same malfunction with my meter. The consumption indicated was far beyond what was physically possible for me to use.

The characteristic of this 'incrementing bug' is that it sporadically adjusts the readings by either small or large amounts, regardless of whether the meter is connected to a gas supply or not.

Despite this evidence, the official standpoint maintains that there are no known recurrent issues with these gas meters.

Please note that once the meter is taken away from your property, the main piece of evidence will also be removed and it may never be tested or the tests may not be able to pick up the "incrementing bug" as the jumps happen at random times.

If you need any help let me know.

MeteredOut

• 30117.502 to .505 is five litres.
• 340117.502 to 30117.674 is 172 litres.
• "Over one unit" is at least a cubic metre.

A metre of 22mm copper pipe has a volume of approx. 380cc - 0.38 litres.

I don't know how exactly much pipe there is between the OP's valve and meter, but from the photos it looks to be much less than a metre - and certainly not the (nearly) three kilometres that it would take to hold a cubic metre of gas!

Perfect, thanks. There's only 30-40cm between the valve and the gas meter (pic below with the ridged piping) and no more than 1-1.5 metres from the gas metre to the boiler. There is also a longer run to a gas fire (that appliance has been off/isolated during all my recent testing) - that's quite a long run around the outside of the house - probably around 20-25 metres.

LoopySnooker

MeteredOut said:

• 30117.502 to .505 is five litres.
• 340117.502 to 30117.674 is 172 litres.
• "Over one unit" is at least a cubic metre.

A metre of 22mm copper pipe has a volume of approx. 380cc - 0.38 litres.

I don't know how exactly much pipe there is between the OP's valve and meter, but from the photos it looks to be much less than a metre - and certainly not the (nearly) three kilometres that it would take to hold a cubic metre of gas!

Perfect, thanks. There's only 30-40cm between the valve and the gas meter and no more than 1-1.5 metres from the gas metre to the boiler. There is also a longer run to a gas fire (that appliance has been off/isolated during all my recent testing) - that's quite a long run around the outside of the house - probably around 20-25 metres.

I wouldn’t bother trying to explain all the detail to the EDF customer service adviser, it will go completely over their head. Simply tell them that they are talking complete nonsense and if they don’t arrange for the meter to be checked ASAP then ask to raise a formal complaint as it’s a deadlock situation.

These companies just don’t get the message until the words ‘formal complaint’ are spoken.