Gas Meter Still Increasing Whilst Gas Isolated (Siemens/Landis+Gyr E6S)

Zandoni

[Deleted User] said:

Zandoni said:

FreeBear said:

Dolor said:

FreeBear said:

I wonder how much it would cost for a Gas Safe registered engineer to fit a meter that you purchased in line with the existing meter. A G4 diaphragm meter can be had for under £50, so technical reason why one couldn't be fitted.

If that was possible that is how gas meters would be checked for accuracy. SGS test gas meters in lab conditions.

But gas meters only need an accuracy of +/-2% to be compliant with regulations. Fitting a secondary meter in series would demonstrate that the primary meter is generating spurious readings. Clearly not definitive proof when the spikes are less than (say) 0.1m³, but if the discrepancy is greater than 0.5m³, that should flag there is a problem.

An accuracy of 1% is incredibly hard to achieve when you consider the difference when you take into consideration pressure and temperature. An official test will give the exact amount that the meter is out. In the OPs case I’d imagine they would find the meter too defective to test.

It is not going to happen without the supplier’s approval. From the Ofgem website:

‘A registered gas engineer or electrician can do some parts of the connection work (called ‘contestable work’). It can help bring down costs, so it’s worth asking for quotations to breakdown connection work into contestable and non-contestable costs. Network companies may need to agree or inspect this work.’

I suspect that it would cost more than sending a meter away to SGS and finding that it is within limits.

Did you mean to quote me?

CSI_Yorkshire

[Deleted User] said:

Zandoni said:

FreeBear said:

Dolor said:

FreeBear said:

I wonder how much it would cost for a Gas Safe registered engineer to fit a meter that you purchased in line with the existing meter. A G4 diaphragm meter can be had for under £50, so technical reason why one couldn't be fitted.

If that was possible that is how gas meters would be checked for accuracy. SGS test gas meters in lab conditions.

But gas meters only need an accuracy of +/-2% to be compliant with regulations. Fitting a secondary meter in series would demonstrate that the primary meter is generating spurious readings. Clearly not definitive proof when the spikes are less than (say) 0.1m³, but if the discrepancy is greater than 0.5m³, that should flag there is a problem.

An accuracy of 1% is incredibly hard to achieve when you consider the difference when you take into consideration pressure and temperature. An official test will give the exact amount that the meter is out. In the OPs case I’d imagine they would find the meter too defective to test.

It is not going to happen without the supplier’s approval. From the Ofgem website:

‘A registered gas engineer or electrician can do some parts of the connection work (called ‘contestable work’). It can help bring down costs, so it’s worth asking for quotations to breakdown connection work into contestable and non-contestable costs. Network companies may need to agree or inspect this work.’

I suspect that it would cost more than sending a meter away to SGS and finding that it is within limits.

Adding equipment on your own side of the meter is not a new connection and, therefore, there is no such thing as contestable or non-contestable works.  There's also no requirement for the supplier to approve it.

QrizB

CSI_Yorkshire said:

Dolor said:

FreeBear said:

Dolor said:

FreeBear said:

I wonder how much it would cost for a Gas Safe registered engineer to fit a meter that you purchased in line with the existing meter. A G4 diaphragm meter can be had for under £50, so technical reason why one couldn't be fitted.

If that was possible that is how gas meters would be checked for accuracy. SGS test gas meters in lab conditions.

But gas meters only need an accuracy of +/-2% to be compliant with regulations. Fitting a secondary meter in series would demonstrate that the primary meter is generating spurious readings. Clearly not definitive proof when the spikes are less than (say) 0.1m³, but if the discrepancy is greater than 0.5m³, that should flag there is a problem.

It is not going to happen without the supplier’s approval. From the Ofgem website:

‘A registered gas engineer or electrician can do some parts of the connection work (called ‘contestable work’). It can help bring down costs, so it’s worth asking for quotations to breakdown connection work into contestable and non-contestable costs. Network companies may need to agree or inspect this work.’

I suspect that it would cost more than sending a meter away to SGS and finding that it is within limits.

Adding equipment on your own side of the meter is not a new connection and, therefore, there is no such thing as contestable or non-contestable works.  There's also no requirement for the supplier to approve it.

Regardless, it isn't going to help the OP. They'll be out of pocket for the cost of the work (I'd guess £2-300) which they won't be able to reclaim and still won't be any closer to convincing EDF that their meter is faulty and their bill needs adjusting.

MeteredOut

QrizB said:

CSI_Yorkshire said:

Regardless, it isn't going to help the OP. They'll be out of pocket for the cost of the work (I'd guess £2-300) which they won't be able to reclaim and still won't be any closer to convincing EDF that their meter is faulty and their bill needs adjusting.

Don't worry, I had no intention of paying for anything to prove the issue exists. I have all the evidence i need with videos and time-lapse photos, ready for my submission to the ombudsman. That will happen next week if I don't have a confirmed date for an OFMAT. 

Zandoni

MeteredOut said:

QrizB said:

CSI_Yorkshire said:

Regardless, it isn't going to help the OP. They'll be out of pocket for the cost of the work (I'd guess £2-300) which they won't be able to reclaim and still won't be any closer to convincing EDF that their meter is faulty and their bill needs adjusting.

Don't worry, I had no intention of paying for anything to prove the issue exists. I have all the evidence i need with videos and time-lapse photos, ready for my submission to the ombudsman. That will happen next week if I don't have a confirmed date for an OFMAT. 

When you get the test I’d recommend that you tape a small note to the meter asking the examiner to observe it over a long period of time for self incrementing in case it goes unnoticed.

MeteredOut

Zandoni said:

When you get the test I’d recommend that you tape a small note to the meter asking the examiner to observe it over a long period of time for self incrementing in case it goes unnoticed.

Thanks, very good point. I'd have hoped that EDF would let them know that, but now realise that's very unlikely.

MeteredOut

MeteredOut said:

I was very nicely asked last week to try to let them resolve it and not to escalate things to the ombudsman yet, to which I agreed, but made it clear that I wanted an OFMAT. That has preliminarily been scheduled for early July, but needs to appointments team to confirm.

Oh, what a surprise. Look what has just appeared in my online account:

We are writing to you with regards to the appointment that you have requested to exchange and test your gas meter on 6th July 2023

Unfortunately the appointment you have requested will not be going ahead. Your details have been passed back to the advisor who you were in contact with and they should be in contact with you to follow this up.

If the appointment is still required, please could you contact us on 0333 2005 100. If the appointment is no longer required there is nothing you need to do.

We would like to apologise for any inconvenience this may of caused. 

Grrrr. I'll speak to my contact at EDF, but the ombudsman is looking almost certain now.

PS. Their use of "inconvenience this may of caused" has annoyed me almost as much!

DPatroller

My Siemens E6 meter continues to increase all the time and turning the supply off makes no difference at all. Over 1000 cubic metres recorded in 7 days now.  

There were 9 new properties built on our development in 1998/99. I asked the neighbours for feedback. Whilst I haven't explored each case, a number of us have recently had similar issues with the meters. I'm guessing it is related to end of battery life. One person shared an SGS "so defective that it could not be examined" result he has just received this month. "The register incremented in the no flow condition". Their Siemens E6 meter acted similar to ours - intermittent random sized/length increases, some very large, and initially undetected over an extended period.  

I could go on at length about the very poor response we've had thus far from So Energy (3 weeks in) but this is MeteredOut's thread. I just want to assure other readers who stumble on this information source (as I did) that for these meters errors are not as exceptional as most literature suggests. The E6 meters seem to be going badly wrong at the users' expense. There doesn't seem to have been an effective process to renew their batteries, replace or otherwise maintain them.
         
MeteredOut - Your meter Serial Number is covered in the photo. What year is it? It's the penultimate two digits on the Siemens ones but I guess Landis & Gyr are the same.

MeteredOut

DPatroller said:

<snip>

I could go on at length about the very poor response we've had thus far from So Energy (3 weeks in) but this is MeteredOut's thread. I just want to assure other readers who stumble on this information source (as I did) that for these meters errors are not as exceptional as most literature suggests. The E6 meters seem to be going badly wrong at the users' expense. There doesn't seem to have been an effective process to renew their batteries, replace or otherwise maintain them.
         

I don't mind you adding your details to this thread - I suspect this will become a growing issue over the next few years as these meter batteries run down, and if there are still millions installed... This page says around 2 million were installed

https://iamthemeterman.co.uk/gas/siemens-e6-gas-meter/

MeteredOut - Your meter Serial Number is covered in the photo. What year is it? It's the penultimate two digits on the Siemens ones but I guess Landis & Gyr are the same.

The last 2 digits are 52, but i doubt its that old, the two before that are 04, so perhaps its that? The serial number format (sanitised) is E6 S0100xxx 04 52.

But, a sticker on the meter might indicate it was installed on 20/05/2014:

Our house was originally built around 2001, had a major extension in 2009, so i can't understand why a new meter would be fitted in 2014 unless there was an issue with a previous one. We bought the house in 2017 and have no way of contacting the previous owners to ask.

According to this page, Landis & Gyr was bought by Siemens in 1998 and then divested into Landis + Gyr in 2002. My meter has the + rather than the & verion of the Landis + Gyr name.

https://www.landisgyr.eu/webfoo/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/Factsheet_E_FY18_7-24-2019.pdf

Gerry1

MeteredOut said:

DPatroller said:

<snip>

I could go on at length about the very poor response we've had thus far from So Energy (3 weeks in) but this is MeteredOut's thread. I just want to assure other readers who stumble on this information source (as I did) that for these meters errors are not as exceptional as most literature suggests. The E6 meters seem to be going badly wrong at the users' expense. There doesn't seem to have been an effective process to renew their batteries, replace or otherwise maintain them.
        

MeteredOut - Your meter Serial Number is covered in the photo. What year is it? It's the penultimate two digits on the Siemens ones but I guess Landis & Gyr are the same.

But, a sticker on the meter might indicate it was installed on 20/05/2014:

Looks more like 2016 to me.