Meter Change

Spoonie_Turtle

matt_drummer said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

Economy 10 is like Economy 7, but with 10 off-peak hours instead of 7, and spread over (usually) 2 or 3 slots instead of all overnight.  It's my understanding that its main aim was people with storage heaters that weren't adequate for Economy 7 and needed an extra daytime boost.  There are several different variants of that kind of tariff in Scotland, being colder up there for longer.

Economy 10 required complex metering before smart meters; smart meters could be fine doing it but most suppliers stopped supporting it before smart meters were widespread and it's not been a tariff offered for years and years (only available to legacy customers or people moving into homes already on Economy 10 and having to open a new account with the supplier).

OK, so it was for a particular set of circumstances and wasn't available to all customers even if it may have suited them.

A bit like Cosy Octopus and EV tariffs, available to customers in a particular circumstance and not available to everybody even though they may suit some customers who do not fit the profile.

Yes and no.  Aimed at ≠ only available to.  I don't know historically whether new customers without NSHs could request it, but just like people keeping their Economy 7 if they wanted even if their heating system changed, so could Economy 10 customers.  Economy 7 is also, clearly, available to anyone who wants it - I don't know why Economy 10 isn't because the rates are less favourable (maybe they fear the off-peak blocks in the daytime would mean it's a loss maker?).

The frustration for the other poster is that because Octopus put them in a bad position, Octious could choose in this *unique, completely one-off situation* to waive their rule about needing a heat pump, as restitution for their mistake.  It doesn't even set a precedent because literally nobody else should be in the exact same position.

Gerry1

matt_drummer said:

What was Economy 10?
Who was that aimed at and who was it offered to?
I don't recall ever being offered such a tariff.

It was often used for properties with underfloor electric heating, e.g. tower blocks.  Unlike storage heaters, with underfloor there's very little control of the output heat.  Effectively underfloor is a halfway house between panel heaters that work with a thermostat in real time (no storage) and real NSHs that only charge overnight.  Back in the day, electricity was as cheap as chips so there wasn't much incentive to spend money on bigger boxes of bricks with better insulation: cheap and cheerful underfloor was good enough as a heating system, and E10 was good enough as a cheap enough tariff to go with it.

E10 is an off-peak tariff rather than a pure overnight one.  You'd get a slightly shorter charge during the night that would stop before the peak demand at breakfast.  An afternoon top-up charge (1pm - 4pm) provided heat for the early evening but without using peak power, and there'd be another short boost in the late evening when outside temperatures had dropped.

With higher energy prices it's more cost effective to use HHR NSHs so E10 is fading away and most companies have already phased it out for new supply.

However, it's disingenuous for the supplier to say they can't get an E10 meter for the OP.  Many E10 meters are being withdrawn because of the smart meter rollout, so an existing one one could easily be located and re-installed.

markin

AnnieRichards said:

EssexHebridean said:

AnnieRichards said:

No, they just sympathised with me and said they had no way of forcing any supplier to have a suitable tariff.  So although I was compensated for the financial impact during 2022/23 there is no way at the moment of moving to a suitable tariff unless I change the whole heating system.  Which I simply cannot afford to do - also the property is rented and the Landlord has said he will be expecting me to pay him some compensation if I move out
because any new Tenant will be paying so much more for their energy because of Octopus’ error.

Had your LL done a bit of basic research and not been so daft as to fit a wet electric heating system then there wouldn't be such high heating costs in the first place! Maybe he should be compensating you for the fact that he decided to fit one of the most costly-to-run systems out there into the property in the first place?! 

Can't disagree with you there!  But I made it work for me for 7 years - my ANNUAL bill before last winter was somewhere in the region of £650 in an all electric village with no chimney so no alternative warmth ability (and it's a grade 2 listed building therefore no double glazing either!!). But it is very pretty ^_^

Use the Compo to install a HHR NSH in the most common used room, The payback can be 3 years on E7 with night rate vs day rate usage.

QrizB

markin said:

 install a HHR NSH in the most common used room, The payback can be 3 years on E7 with night rate vs day rate usage.

OP rents, so spending £500+ on a single NSH is not a simple suggestion.

Moving house to one with a cheaper-to-run heating system might be an option, but is still not a trivial or cost-free action.

lohr500

I have an EDF tariff called ECO20:20 on a SMETS2 meter .

It is a time of use tariff which provides an off peak rate between 9pm and 7am weekdays and all weekend. Peak rate usage is captured on the rate 1 register, off peak on register 2.

If EDF can configure this tariff, then surely it should be possible to configure smart meters to support an E10 type tariff.

I suspect this is more a case of suppliers not wanting to offer ongoing E10 tariffs than the technical ability to do so.

markin

QrizB said:

markin said:

 install a HHR NSH in the most common used room, The payback can be 3 years on E7 with night rate vs day rate usage.

OP rents, so spending £500+ on a single NSH is not a simple suggestion.

Moving house to one with a cheaper-to-run heating system might be an option, but is still not a trivial or cost-free action.

Been 7 years and says they can't move anyway or they would have.

Chrysalis

Dolor said:

But there shouldnt be a need to draw a hard line and say you must own a heat pump to use this tariff. There can be many other situations where such a tariff can prove useful to someone.

The hardline is drawn because Octopus is a heat pump designer; manufacturer and installer. It purchased RED last year:

https://www.current-news.co.uk/octopus-energy-acquires-heat-pump-manufacturer-red-in-move-to-create-model-t-moment-for-sector/

The Octopus CEO has long said that it believes that heat pumps are the future. Similarly, Octopus offers tariffs which are restricted to EV owners. One of its subsidiaries sells/leases EVs. Intelligent Flux is a tariff targeted at GivEnergy battery owners: Octopus controls battery charging at the best times for the Grid.

Yes, which is what I touched on at the end of my post after I did a little bit of digging.  Thanks for also confirming the EV link as well.

Chrysalis

AnnieRichards said:

matt_drummer said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

Economy 10 is like Economy 7, but with 10 off-peak hours instead of 7, and spread over (usually) 2 or 3 slots instead of all overnight.  It's my understanding that its main aim was people with storage heaters that weren't adequate for Economy 7 and needed an extra daytime boost.  There are several different variants of that kind of tariff in Scotland, being colder up there for longer.

Economy 10 required complex metering before smart meters; smart meters could be fine doing it but most suppliers stopped supporting it before smart meters were widespread and it's not been a tariff offered for years and years (only available to legacy customers or people moving into homes already on Economy 10 and having to open a new account with the supplier).

OK, so it was for a particular set of circumstances and wasn't available to all customers even if it may have suited them.

A bit like Cosy Octopus and EV tariffs, available to customers in a particular circumstance and not available to everybody even though they may suit some customers who do not fit the profile.

The issue is that the Customers who currently have the Economy 10 are having their tariffs cancelled and replaced with tariffs that do not work with their existing heating systems.  In my case an electric boiler (8 years old) with a normal wet radiator system.  Therefore not storage heaters.  E7 works if you have storage heaters and is useless if you don’t.

If the reason, as frequently quoted, is to encourage us to swap our energy use out of the peak periods to help stop the planet overheating etc etc etc and heat pumps are the latest great idea then why is no one offering the equivalent of the existing E10 tariff?  In fact the E10 tariff only used power when most people don’t want it therefore I cannot see
any reason for the removal of it.  Nor indeed is there a suitable replacement.  

We are a minority BUT there are regulations in place to protect “complex metering” which (in my case) Octopus were allowed to completely side step without OFGEM/Ombudsman/Parliament/Citizens Advice/legal representation/media being willing to help me challenge!

Unfortunately it is going to take many more of us to join together and make someone, somewhere actually take any notice.

My original posing is lengthy and I am still fighting, out of principle, to try and get someone to listen to the injustice foisted upon those of us who don’t have the means of replacing a whole heating system.  There is absolutely no reason for the SMETS2 meters to work on a tariff which matches the existing E10. They just refuse to write one therefore forcing us to pay much more than Customers who are lucky enough to have an alternative.

As far as I’m concerned the excuse of helping the planet is smoke and mirrors.  E10 does work for many and still can with a SMETS2 meter.  My ANNUAL use (before last winter’s exceptional pricing) for a 2 bedroom terraced house with single glazing (it’s listed so has single glazing) was averaging £650.  Now I can’t afford to heat my home at all.  It’s been shown time and again that Octopus can write any tariff they want, they just choose not to in this case.

I dont think you getting cosy changed.  You could send a twitter DM to Greg the CEO of Octopus and see if he can be convinced to allow the billing platform to support E10 on smart meters, its definitely possible for Octopus to do, their IT team is capable as they have already made far more complex tariffs, its all about at this point if Octopus can be bothered to do it, by contacting him you at least show there is "some" demand.  Dont expect much more than a fob off, but it at least makes them aware there is demand for it.  You might also be able to get a waiver in the mean time.

GoneWestWoman

The other issue is cooking.  I live in an all electric village therefore have an electric cooker.  The E7 is also useless for this unless I want to get up in the middle of the night to batch cook!

E7 storage heater customers have the advantage of saving money for their heating to off-set the extra cost of cooking.  I don’t have that option.  I have to pay the “premium” to heat my house and then have to pay extra to cook!  All of this went into my original complaint with the Ombudsman but Octopus just completely ignored it.

matt_drummer

Out of curiosity, how much electricity do you consume a year?

What is the financial impact of being on a standard rate compared to cosy octopus?

Obviously, you don't need to tell us if you don't want to.