Using mediation for financial agreement

tightauldgit

NornIronRose said:

Btw, my religion is Islam so I am bound by shariah law. It is my choice that I will not be pursuing a share of his pension or savings. But 

My 'culture' is British, as my name suggests. Easy mistake to make. 

As some of you have suggested too, I am intending to put a bit of effort in to get the house looking as good as possible, then getting three valuations done so I know my expectations of the equity I should get from the home when it is sold.  

While it's obviously your choice to make, please take time to think it through. There is absolutely no legal requirement to abide by Shariah Law and it's clear in this case that doing so would disadvantage you. At the end of the day though you have the right to do what you want to. 

A few more comments and responses to your questions: 

1. If he is being served divorce papers and seeking mediation then surely he must be providing an address on these documents? If not or the address is incorrect I would raise it with a court. If he is then surely that address should be sufficient for CMS purposes?

2. The choice to use or not use mediation is entirely yours. If there has been abuse then that is a reason why you can opt NOT to do it (I think you don't even need to attend a MIAM in that case, you can just write on the form that you are unwilling to enter mediation because of abuse but I would double check that). If you feel comfortable being in the same room and discussing matters then you can absolutely agree to mediation. It's up to you

3. While child maintenance is not part of a financial order I would absolutely refuse to sign off on any agreement reached through mediation without the child maintenance question being resolved. 

4. Given my first paragraph here I personally would also be wary of using religious mediation and would opt for a secular mediator. Again totally your choice but I can only see it disadvantaging you.  

Pollycat

tightauldgit said:

NornIronRose said:

Btw, my religion is Islam so I am bound by shariah law. It is my choice that I will not be pursuing a share of his pension or savings. But 

My 'culture' is British, as my name suggests. Easy mistake to make. 

As some of you have suggested too, I am intending to put a bit of effort in to get the house looking as good as possible, then getting three valuations done so I know my expectations of the equity I should get from the home when it is sold.  

While it's obviously your choice to make, please take time to think it through. There is absolutely no legal requirement to abide by Shariah Law and it's clear in this case that doing so would disadvantage you. At the end of the day though you have the right to do what you want to. 

A few more comments and responses to your questions: 

1. If he is being served divorce papers and seeking mediation then surely he must be providing an address on these documents? If not or the address is incorrect I would raise it with a court. If he is then surely that address should be sufficient for CMS purposes?

2. The choice to use or not use mediation is entirely yours. If there has been abuse then that is a reason why you can opt NOT to do it (I think you don't even need to attend a MIAM in that case, you can just write on the form that you are unwilling to enter mediation because of abuse but I would double check that). If you feel comfortable being in the same room and discussing matters then you can absolutely agree to mediation. It's up to you

3. While child maintenance is not part of a financial order I would absolutely refuse to sign off on any agreement reached through mediation without the child maintenance question being resolved. 

4. Given my first paragraph here I personally would also be wary of using religious mediation and would opt for a secular mediator. Again totally your choice but I can only see it disadvantaging you.  

My friend went through a pretty acrimonious divorce.
Her and her ex did go through mediation but they were in separate rooms and never saw each other.

So maybe a reason for OP not to dismiss mediation.

I'm just wondering how the mediator will handle the OP's reluctance to go for what she's entitled to.
Maybe worth pointing that out before arranging any mediation.

tightauldgit

Pollycat said:

tightauldgit said:

NornIronRose said:

Btw, my religion is Islam so I am bound by shariah law. It is my choice that I will not be pursuing a share of his pension or savings. But 

My 'culture' is British, as my name suggests. Easy mistake to make. 

As some of you have suggested too, I am intending to put a bit of effort in to get the house looking as good as possible, then getting three valuations done so I know my expectations of the equity I should get from the home when it is sold.  

While it's obviously your choice to make, please take time to think it through. There is absolutely no legal requirement to abide by Shariah Law and it's clear in this case that doing so would disadvantage you. At the end of the day though you have the right to do what you want to. 

A few more comments and responses to your questions: 

1. If he is being served divorce papers and seeking mediation then surely he must be providing an address on these documents? If not or the address is incorrect I would raise it with a court. If he is then surely that address should be sufficient for CMS purposes?

2. The choice to use or not use mediation is entirely yours. If there has been abuse then that is a reason why you can opt NOT to do it (I think you don't even need to attend a MIAM in that case, you can just write on the form that you are unwilling to enter mediation because of abuse but I would double check that). If you feel comfortable being in the same room and discussing matters then you can absolutely agree to mediation. It's up to you

3. While child maintenance is not part of a financial order I would absolutely refuse to sign off on any agreement reached through mediation without the child maintenance question being resolved. 

4. Given my first paragraph here I personally would also be wary of using religious mediation and would opt for a secular mediator. Again totally your choice but I can only see it disadvantaging you.  

My friend went through a pretty acrimonious divorce.
Her and her ex did go through mediation but they were in separate rooms and never saw each other.

So maybe a reason for OP not to dismiss mediation.

I'm just wondering how the mediator will handle the OP's reluctance to go for what she's entitled to.
Maybe worth pointing that out before arranging any mediation.

I don't really see it as being an issue I'm sure many people go into mediation not asking for every single penny they are entitled to. I would imagine the mediator would set out what legal entitlements she would have but it's not necessary that she pursue them all - it might well be leverage to get what she does want though if she points out that she's agreeing to less than she would otherwise get if it went through court. 

Wish my ex had been happy to accept 50% of the equity in the house and nothing else- I'd have bitten her hand off. 

elsien

NornIronRose said:

Thank you all for some very helpful advice. I didn't reply before because I have been at work and just catching up now.  
To address some of the points raised: yes,  same dh who hasn't paid any child support. That has not changed as he still does not have an address that I know of. 

Shariah law does set out what I am/am not entitled to in divorce. It is not as clear cut as it would be for inheritance. He is adamant that I am not entitled to 50% of the home as he put more equity in than me.  This is true,  but I also worked while he studied,  looked after our home and children, and paid bills throughout the marriage. I also did put money into buying our first home. 

We do have a civil marriage as well as an Islamic one. Divorce application is just going through now. 

I also need to add that I have just been granted a non molestation order. He has been determined that we leave the property and sign it over to him. He had reluctantly agreed to hold off until school finished in the summer. But now the non mol means he can't move here while we are living here, at least for the next year. 

Even though he will continue to deny it, there has been domestic abuse. Does this mean that we can't go for mediation? My brain is so tired but I think I read that and one of you mentioned it. 

He can be as adamant as he likes but that’s not what are the law says after a marriage as long as yours. As you say, you’ve done more than your fair share in other ways. And you will be keeping a roof over your children’s heads. On that basis he is lucky to be getting away with just 50%, and shouldn’t be arguing that you deserve less. 

TBagpuss

NornIronRose said:

Thank you all for some very helpful advice. I didn't reply before because I have been at work and just catching up now.  
To address some of the points raised: yes,  same dh who hasn't paid any child support. That has not changed as he still does not have an address that I know of. 

Shariah law does set out what I am/am not entitled to in divorce. It is not as clear cut as it would be for inheritance. He is adamant that I am not entitled to 50% of the home as he put more equity in than me.  This is true,  but I also worked while he studied,  looked after our home and children, and paid bills throughout the marriage. I also did put money into buying our first home. 
It's up to you whether you chose to follow Shariah or not.
He may have contributed more financially but the law is very clear that the court considers all contributions, both financial and non-financial. Imagine what it would have costs to pay a full time nanny and a full time housekeeper, if you had not been doing the work caring for the home and children as well as you paid jobs. Your contributions are (and will be treated by the court as being) at least as much as his. 
And in addition, in terms of pension, he has in part been able to build that up because  he was free to progress in his career, and to work full time, because you were caring for the children. If you had not been, or if he had been paying for child care, he would not have been able to save as much. So you have contributed to those pensions and savings.

I don't know whether Shariah is based solely on whether your name appears on an asset or whether the fact that you help to build up those assets, even though they are held in his name, would be relevant, but it is worth thinking about.

It's also worth bearing in mind that if he is going to retain the pensions etc.,  it would be entirely fair for you to have more than 50% of the equity in the house .


We do have a civil marriage as well as an Islamic one. Divorce application is just going through now. 

I also need to add that I have just been granted a non molestation order. He has been determined that we leave the property and sign it over to him. He had reluctantly agreed to hold off until school finished in the summer. But now the non mol means he can't move here while we are living here, at least for the next year. 

Even though he will continue to deny it, there has been domestic abuse. Does this mean that we can't go for mediation? My brain is so tired but I think I read that and one of you mentioned it. 

I've added some comments in bold above.

Also,  I am not sure if you have seen a solicitor - you may want to talk to one who is experienced in dealing with Shariah as well as with the UK court system, as they may be able to advise about how the two intersect. I am not by any means an expert but understand that while not strictly required, the Qur'an does state that a husband should give his wife a gift on divorce according to his means, as well as retuning her dowry and in addition to anything she is automatically entitled to, so it's worth keeping in mind that there is precedent for you having more than just the bare minimum, even within Shariah and the Islamic tradition. 

Given what you say about his abusive behaviour and the non-molestation order I would say you will not be required to attend mediation and it is probably not the right option for you, as he will no doubt try to bully you. I would suggest seeing a solicitor - there are other options for trying to resolve things by negotiation without it meaning that you have to be negotiating with him directly, and to be blunt, if he is trying to bully you and is abusive but unwilling to accept that he is abusive, he is not going into mediation with the intent of reaching a fair agreement, he's going in in the hopes of forcing you to do what he wants. 

NornIronRose

Very good points there Tbagpuss. According to shariah law I also shouldn't have had to contribute to any bills or expenses. He will say that I voluntarily did that to help the family,  which he repeatedly told me. It was also because he was better at saving than me so your point about me contributing more financially than there is on paper, is a very good one. 
I was made to open a share dealing account for him to use. To this day I still have no idea why he was so insistent that I do it. 
I have sold all the shares and am going to close the account and transfer the money to him, as it is his money. 
I am extremely tempted to keep an amount back towards the child support he has not paid. Just need to take advice on whether that would be acceptable or not. 
Of course, he is expecting that money as part of the pay off to me to sign over my share of the home. 
Decisions, decisions! 

elsien

NornIronRose in the nicest possible way, do you think that the domestic abuse is colouring your decisions around what is and isn't correct under shariah law? And that your concerns about what you should and shouldn't be accepting are underlain by some coercive control, the remnants of which may still linger even though you are now out of the situation.

I may be completely wide of the mark in which case ignore me, but I just wanted to put that out for your consideration.
Personally I'd have no hesitation in taking the child maintenance from the share account. Again legally they are in your name so there's nothing stopping you from keeping the lot for now, but I appreciate that doesn't sit well with you wanting to do the right thing. 

TBagpuss

NornIronRose said:

Very good points there Tbagpuss. According to shariah law I also shouldn't have had to contribute to any bills or expenses. He will say that I voluntarily did that to help the family,  which he repeatedly told me. It was also because he was better at saving than me so your point about me contributing more financially than there is on paper, is a very good one. 
I was made to open a share dealing account for him to use. To this day I still have no idea why he was so insistent that I do it. 
I have sold all the shares and am going to close the account and transfer the money to him, as it is his money. 
I am extremely tempted to keep an amount back towards the child support he has not paid. Just need to take advice on whether that would be acceptable or not. 
Of course, he is expecting that money as part of the pay off to me to sign over my share of the home. 
Decisions, decisions! 

IF the share account is in your name, change the passwords so he can't access it and treat those shares as yours. 
The any reason  I can think of for him insisting it was in your name would be if he was seeking to avoid tax or something of that nature.  At the very least, don't transfer anything to him yet - it may be handy as a bargaining tool (Also, while it probably doesn't matter unless the amounts are very large, if the shares are currently in your name then you would be liable for any tax or CGT due, s o ensure that you know what and whether anything is due so if you do transfer the funds or the shares to him eventually, any costs and tax are deducted first.

But do reconsider your position - it sounds as though he is cherry picking the elements of Shariah which benefit him and disregarding anything that would assist you. The sort so f things you are describing suggest he is financially control which is another form of domestic abuse, maybe give yourself some breathing space and talk to a lawyer before you make a firm decision about what you will or won't take.

tightauldgit

NornIronRose said:

Very good points there Tbagpuss. According to shariah law I also shouldn't have had to contribute to any bills or expenses. He will say that I voluntarily did that to help the family,  which he repeatedly told me. It was also because he was better at saving than me so your point about me contributing more financially than there is on paper, is a very good one. 
I was made to open a share dealing account for him to use. To this day I still have no idea why he was so insistent that I do it. 
I have sold all the shares and am going to close the account and transfer the money to him, as it is his money. 
I am extremely tempted to keep an amount back towards the child support he has not paid. Just need to take advice on whether that would be acceptable or not. 
Of course, he is expecting that money as part of the pay off to me to sign over my share of the home. 
Decisions, decisions! 

Any money in that share account is at best 50% his if its a marital asset. Do not give that money to him while he is reneging on his child support obligations. If you've sold the shares, cash it out and put it in an interest paying bank account until such times as the matters are resolved in full. 

You seem very keen to give him more than he is entitled to while he is very keen to give you less than you are entitled to. I think you need to take a more pragmatic view of the situation and just hold off on accepting less than you should. What benefit will it do you in the long run to let him have his own way on everything?

NornIronRose

Thank you to the three of you for some very useful advice. 
I hadn't considered if there would be tax due from the dealing of the shares. How would I even go about finding that out? 
I was able to sell all the shares the other day as I could find the paperwork from when the account was opened.  
Maybe it's a good thing that I haven't done anything with that money yet. 
The instructions (yes, I know) were that I sell the shares, close the account, and transfer the money to him. Because he had changed the email address to his, and I have no idea what the password is, I can't access the account. When I sold the shares I was told how much is now in the account, so at least I know that. 

When I go into the bank can I be honest with them about why I don't have the correct details? Or will I get into trouble? 
I know the T&C of the account will prohibit someone else using it. I'd hate for them to decide to freeze the account and keep the money. 
They had said that I only needed to come in with ID and the bank card and they could help. I spent 3 weeks looking for it then remembered that I had accidentally given it back to him along with letters that had come here for him.