Can this toilet be moved?

pieroabcd

Gavin83 said:

pieroabcd said:

jrawle said:

Gycraig said:

Literally just noticed our en suite doesn’t have a window, our other one does but it’s frosted and always closed. What’s the benefit of a window in a bathroom ? 

Natural light! I always think a bathroom with no window feels like a hotel room en-suite (the Travelodge sort that you might stay in for a business trip) so not something I want to reproduce at home. I think it should also be in building regs that every room has to have a window to save energy on lighting. 

I would add a minimum.area of at least 3mx3m and a min height of at least 2.70m:-)

I know I'm in a minority here but I've never understood the appeal of high ceilings. Standard 2.4m seems more than sufficient to me.it feeI

A house with high ceilings FEELS bigger, much bigger, similarly to how it feels bigger  when there's an extensive use of mirrors (in new builds).
If you have the opportunity you could see this show home
https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/129167138#/?channel=RES_NEW
or to a lesser extent this flat
https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/129154187#/?channel=RES_NEW

I'll go with neither for various reasons (heating system, areas, transports), but I find them very well designed.

Moreover it's incredible how you can use the walls. I lived nearly all my life in flats with 3m ceilings. Even the bedroom where I'm living now, that is bigger than most and with ceilings that are 2.60m high, to me feels slightly oppressive.

Section62

diystarter7 said:

OP
Not sure if this has been said before - but just get a free quote and see what some builder/bathroom expert has to say then at least you will get an opinion from an onsite visit - not saying they will be accurate as you only find that out when the works go ahead.

That doesn't really work.

Although the thread title is "Can this toilet be moved?", the reality is the OP wants to know whether completely reorganising the first floor layout is a possibility.

As that is likely to involve structural work, a "builder/bathroom expert" is unlikely to be able to provide competent advice... other than "you need a structural engineer".  Which is the gist of what they have got from this thread already.

diystarter7

Section62 said:

diystarter7 said:

OP
Not sure if this has been said before - but just get a free quote and see what some builder/bathroom expert has to say then at least you will get an opinion from an onsite visit - not saying they will be accurate as you only find that out when the works go ahead.

That doesn't really work.

Although the thread title is "Can this toilet be moved?", the reality is the OP wants to know whether completely reorganising the first floor layout is a possibility.

As that is likely to involve structural work, a "builder/bathroom expert" is unlikely to be able to provide competent advice... other than "you need a structural engineer".  Which is the gist of what they have got from this thread already.

Hi

It does really work and your assumption is completely wrong as it worked for me and people I know
We were having a wall knocked years ago got builders over, one of the builders sent their surveyor out and he was able to tell me it was a load-bearing wall by having a quick look around the house and looking at the floorboards. Now you may not be happy with that but millions would be

So it does work and has worked and nothing wrong in giving it a go. I'll let the OP decide if they want to take this route in order to prepare for the final stage. That what we did we chose another builder and a separate surveyor but the free advice/quote put me on a stronger footing,

I'll let you have the last word.

Thanks

Section62

diystarter7 said:

I'll let you have the last word.

That isn't really what this site is about.  The idea is people can come here to get good money saving tips and advice. A fundamental part of money saving is having correct/good advice, rather than things that are a waste of time or could result in costly mistakes.

I post on here when I think I could help someone, if there's something to add, or where I see bad advice which could have serious consequences for someone's health, welfare, or finances.  As such your 'permission' for me to reply wasn't necessary - the gift isn't yours to give.

diystarter7 said:

It does really work and your assumption is completely wrong as it worked for me and people I know
We were having a wall knocked years ago got builders over, one of the builders sent their surveyor out and he was able to tell me it was a load-bearing wall by having a quick look around the house and looking at the floorboards. Now you may not be happy with that but millions would be

So it does work and has worked and nothing wrong in giving it a go. I'll let the OP decide if they want to take this route in order to prepare for the final stage. That what we did we chose another builder and a separate surveyor but the free advice/quote put me on a stronger footing

So, there are several reasons why that is bad advice, and why what I said in my previous post was correct, not "completely wrong".

Firstly, it is necessary to understand the meaning of "competent".  Yes you can ask anyone for advice, but for some things - like structural alterations to a house - you need to ask a competent person.  Which in this case is a structural engineer.  The OP knows that and mentioned it early in the thread.  A builder might know somthing about structural engineering but many are completely clueless and just want to do the job the easiest/cheapest way.  The problem for a lay client is then working out whether the builder they are consulting is one of the former or one of the latter.  And if the lay client themselves doesn't know that much about building, then assessing the competence of a builder is close to impossible.  Unless you employ a competent person you will have very little comeback against them if the advice was wrong.

Secondly, in your anecdotal example you confirm the first point by explaining that your builder "sent their surveyor out".  The builder presumably knew he wasn't competent himself so sought advice from a professional with more expertise.  Your advice was to see what "some builder/bathroom expert has to say" - you made no mention of this "builder/bathroom expert" sending their surveyor out.  In any event, a "surveyor" is not the correct professional for this kind of job.  Whilst they may be able to comment in a general sense, they will usually advise the client to consult a structural engineer.

Thirdly, the reason for that is because "looking at the floorboards" might give you some information about the direction joists run, but that in itself doesn't tell you much about the loadbearing function of a nearby wall.  Walls can be loadbearing for reasons other than supporting floors. A competent structural engineer understands all the potential structural functions of a given structural element and will methodically work through them to determine whether any of them apply in each case.  Sometimes it is easy to work out that a wall isn't loadbearing, and sometimes people without the necessary competence can guess right. "Millions" might be happy with that approach, but it isn't good advice.

Fourthly, if you had read the thread closely, you'd be aware that the OP said there was no wall on the ground floor below the one between the two bedrooms.  The issue here is with a first floor wall.  "Looking at the floorboards" of the bedrooms will tell you nothing useful about the loadbearing nature of the first floor wall.  The absence of a wall on the ground floor is also an important clue.  It means either that structural alterations have been carried out, or that the structural design is slightly more complicated than the norm.  Either way, it needs a structural engineer to check proposed (further) alterations to make sure they are compatible with the existing situation.

Fifthly, this is a property the OP is considering buying.  At present it is difficult to get good traders to quote for any work.  Even in slack times good traders are reluctant to provide "free quotes" to people considering buying a property because the chances of the person buying the property and giving the builder the work are slim.  In the current situation it is likely to be incredibly difficult to get a competent "builder/bathroom expert" to provide a "free quote" on a property you don't own - and if you could find one, vendors are rarely happy for builders/surveyors to move furniture and lift carpets so they can look at the floorboards.

Those are the reasons why I said "That doesn't really work" to the idea of getting a "free quote" to answer the OP's question about the feasibility of moving walls and the toilet.

To conclude, I'll quote a forum member's better advice from the start of the thread -

diystarter7 said:

pieroabcd said:

diystarter7 said:

....

Re knocking down of walls and assuming, please be careful as some walls that don't look (to the untrianed eye) as though they are load bearing may well be so professional advice is always called for.

Of course I would involve a structural engineer, but I need to understand if it's already been done before or if an engineer thinks that it's feasible.
Btw, I would replace the bathtub with a shower

Ok, but you did not say that in your OP...

Consulting a structural engineer was the correct advice.  So much so that you rebuked the OP for not mentioning that they were intending to do that.  The "untrianed eye" of "some builder/bathroom expert" providing a "free quote" is not going to competently advise the OP.  You said it yourself.

GiantTCR

pieroabcd said:

Hi,
with a 1st floor like this, is it generally possible to move the toilet from where it is now to the space in front of the stairs, taking some space from bedrooms 2 and 3?
I'd also like to knock down the walls between bedroom 3 and the toilet and between bedrooms 2 and 4, so as to make 2 larger bedrooms.
In the lounge there's no wall on the vertical of the wall separating bedrooms 2 and 3, so I assume that that wall is not load bearing.
On top of the 1st floor there's also a loft extension.






Thanks

You can leave the bathroom where it is instead of moving it somewhere where there is no window, knock down the wall between bedroom 2 and bedroom 4, then move the wall between bedroom 3 and 2 down a bit so bedroom 3 would become a little longer/bigger

pieroabcd

Section62 said:

Firstly, it is necessary to understand the meaning of "competent".  Yes you can ask anyone for advice, but for some things - like structural alterations to a house - you need to ask a competent person.  Which in this case is a structural engineer.  The OP knows that and mentioned it early in the thread.  A builder might know somthing about structural engineering but many are completely clueless and just want to do the job the easiest/cheapest way.  The problem for a lay client is then working out whether the builder they are consulting is one of the former or one of the latter.  And if the lay client themselves doesn't know that much about building, then assessing the competence of a builder is close to impossible.  Unless you employ a competent person you will have very little comeback against them if the advice was wrong.

Thanks for all your observations, I really appreciate them.
Yes, the purchase offer was approved but I'm still waiting for the mortgage offer. The risk of being gazumped is high, so we are taking of thin air at the moment, yet I need to understand the process.

Assuming that the sale completes and that a structural engineer comes out with a good plan that the bank approves (a lot of IFs, I know) - most likely the simple one that doesn't move the bathroom - what would be the procedure to follow?
I imagine this sequence
1) ask the engineer to apply with the Council and get the plan approved
2) appoint a builder to do the work
but how to chose the builders? If the engineers had their own or if they proposed some external "trusted builders" I would instinctively suspect a conflict of interests, but on the other hand I know no builders at all and I completely lack the skill to evaluate them (and even to understand if they did a good job compliant with the regulations).

What's a reasonable approach?

Section62

pieroabcd said:

Thanks for all your observations, I really appreciate them.
Yes, the purchase offer was approved but I'm still waiting for the mortgage offer. The risk of being gazumped is high, so we are taking of thin air at the moment, yet I need to understand the process.

Assuming that the sale completes and that a structural engineer comes out with a good plan that the bank approves (a lot of IFs, I know) - most likely the simple one that doesn't move the bathroom - what would be the procedure to follow?
I imagine this sequence
1) ask the engineer to apply with the Council and get the plan approved
2) appoint a builder to do the work
but how to chose the builders? If the engineers had their own or if they proposed some external "trusted builders" I would instinctively suspect a conflict of interests, but on the other hand I know no builders at all and I completely lack the skill to evaluate them (and even to understand if they did a good job compliant with the regulations).

What's a reasonable approach?

A structural engineer will only look at the structural elements of the project - they can advise on the removal of walls and what structural solutions you may need as a result.

This has the potential to be quite a complex project, so you really need to start with an architect to look at the layout and what you can realistically do within your budget.  Most builders are likely to be out of their depth taking on a job like this without someone else's plans to work from.

The loft conversion also adds a layer of complexity to the project as you'll need to know how that floor is supported.

It remains the case that you could spend a lot of money reconfiguring the first floor and end up making the house worth less money.  A decent architect should also be able to guide you on the implications of the changes in terms of cost and impact on the property value and saleability.

pieroabcd

Thninking better, instead of moving this bathroom would the Council permit me to REmove it altogether? I could end up having 2 master bedrooms at the 1st floor merging the main bedrooms with the adjacent boxroom/bathroom. For me what matters most is having ample space.
There are already 2 other complete bathrooms in the house. I know that the one at the ground floor can't be removed, but what about the other floors?