Police damage to front door - possibly excessive

Section62

diystarter7 said:

Torry_Quine said:

The door my father has the chain is part of it rather than added later. This means that I can unlock the door and get in even if the chain is on. Very useful if I need to get in quickly.

Thank you - so for the frail that may have a key safe/etc, best to label keys
As I posted earlier, poss the police training/refresher courses, in the event of a walfare entry where frail person living alone/etc, break door glass to reach if appropriate
Thanks

As above, breaking glass to effect entry is not necessarily that easy, nor should it be seen as a method which is preferable to others such as forcing the door.

Broken glass can be extremely dangerous.  Doors can be replaced, people can't.

Ath_Wat

lisyloo said:

chris_n said:

lisyloo said:

Ath_Wat said:

lisyloo said:

DanDare999 said:

lisyloo said:

DanDare999 said:

Bendy_House said:

Are door chains actually accessible from the outside - are the door gaps large enough? Wouldn't that defeat their purpose if someone wanted to get in - an easy 'snip' rather than a 'smash'?

If the gaps are large enough to get a bolt-cutter in there, then I'm surprised the services don't use a BC before a battering ram - the time taken must be very similar, and far less chance of injury (and property damage, of course).

Think about what you said there, how do the open the door to use bolt cutters?

In this case SIL was on site with the key from key safe, so door was unlocked.

So you've said. 

so in answer to your question "how do the open the door to use bolt cutters?", in this case the answer is you unlock the door with the available key.
Or are you asking more generally? In which case you wouldn't be able to and therefore that option would be unavailable.

Don't you think that one reason the police didn't turn up with bolt cutters is because someone had told them they had a key?

There's no "squad of officers" trained and equipped for entering premises with minimal damage, and if there were, how long do you think you would have to wait for them?  Generally when they break into premises it is both pre planned and very much against the wishes of the residents.  In a case like this you get whoever is close enough and free to get there.

I like to hear what others have to say, listen and consider it but I’m afraid I don’t agree with you on either point.

on emergency 999 calls I would expect despatch ASAP and not faffing around with equipment depending on what the possibly confused and/or shocked caller said.
also the emergency services would very possibly be coming straight from another call.
on the contrary it could be argued that if someone said “we have a key but there’s a chain on” then the response would be “ok guys let’s take the van with the cutting equipment for this one”.

on the second point, for health with have specific vehicles (ambulances) and specifically trained resources (paramedics) to deal with 999 calls. Where volunteers are used I would expect them to have a very well defined and strict brief about the limited scope of their actions.
for police 999 calls I would expect suitably trained, dressed and equipped officers to turn up. 
this is not only for the benefit of the public but there will be a duty of care to the officers involved and rightly so.
so I don’t agree that Fred the untrained desk sergeant who is used to answering telephones will show up just because he’s closest. I suspect Fred might come off worst if he tried to break down a door that he’s not trained, dressed or equipped to deal with.

I hope that explains better my thinking.

Remember there has been an issue in the news where a series of 999 calls couldn't provide a 'squad of officers' (or even a single one) to prevent  a mother and daughter from being murdered while they were on their final 999 call. The police is as stretched as any public service, they certainly don't have squads waiting around for things like this.

I totally agree with you about the problems and people are dying because of it.
we should all Consider these stories when we are voting because one day it will be us or our loved ones.

there is an emergency service though who are in place to deal with 999 call albeit extremely stretched.

They don’t send Karen from accounts to break the front door down just becuase she’s closest, partly because she might break her wrist in the process.

No - and they didn't.  Someone called 999, so they sent the first available police officer who was properly trained to effect entry as quickly as possible without injury to anyone, including the person inside, who may actually have been in danger where time was an issue.

Your complaint, remember, is that you think they did too much damage.

How much longer would you have wanted them to wait to get the "properly trained" officers with "correct equipment", and what additional risk to the person inside are you willing to accept to save a few door frames?

If there's no emergency, call a locksmith, and pay for it.  If there's an emergency, call the police and accept the consequences.

Ath_Wat

diystarter7 said:

Torry_Quine said:

The door my father has the chain is part of it rather than added later. This means that I can unlock the door and get in even if the chain is on. Very useful if I need to get in quickly.

Thank you - so for the frail that may have a key safe/etc, best to label keys
As I posted earlier, poss the police training/refresher courses, in the event of a walfare entry where frail person living alone/etc, break door glass to reach if appropriate
Thanks

Yeah, you posted it earlier and you have already been told why it isn't right.

diystarter7

Section62 said:

diystarter7 said:

Torry_Quine said:

The door my father has the chain is part of it rather than added later. This means that I can unlock the door and get in even if the chain is on. Very useful if I need to get in quickly.

Thank you - so for the frail that may have a key safe/etc, best to label keys
As I posted earlier, poss the police training/refresher courses, in the event of a walfare entry where frail person living alone/etc, break door glass to reach if appropriate
Thanks

As above, breaking glass to effect entry is not necessarily that easy, nor should it be seen as a method which is preferable to others such as forcing the door.

Broken glass can be extremely dangerous.  Doors can be replaced, people can't.

I've yet to see a composite door as per OP's dad's door that does not have toughed glass and not sure why you mentioned that as the topic is about a composite door.

Thanks

Section62

diystarter7 said:

Section62 said:

diystarter7 said:

Torry_Quine said:

The door my father has the chain is part of it rather than added later. This means that I can unlock the door and get in even if the chain is on. Very useful if I need to get in quickly.

Thank you - so for the frail that may have a key safe/etc, best to label keys
As I posted earlier, poss the police training/refresher courses, in the event of a walfare entry where frail person living alone/etc, break door glass to reach if appropriate
Thanks

As above, breaking glass to effect entry is not necessarily that easy, nor should it be seen as a method which is preferable to others such as forcing the door.

Broken glass can be extremely dangerous.  Doors can be replaced, people can't.

I've yet to see a composite door as per OP's dad's door that does not have toughed glass and not sure why you mentioned that as the topic is about a composite door.

You said -

diystarter7 said:

What officers could be trained up to remember is: When entering a property where there is a suspected welfare issue, EG nonresponsive person that has been frail - if there is a window in the door near the handle, break that first  (imo it's a bit of common sense)

- which was a general comment and not specific to composite doors, nor the OP's dad's door in particular.

Whichever angle you wish to take, the fact remains that your comment/advice is bad advice:- either the glass will be difficult to break, or (if broken) the glass poses a serious safety risk.

Your "common sense" advice (presumably to police services across the UK) is not good advice, which I would guess (not being an expert on police procedures myself) is the reason why the OP's dad's door was forced.

I'd speculate that the police officer involved (who had first-hand knowledge of the situation) knew how to do their job and followed the procedure they have been trained to follow.  Your ideas about what they should be doing instead are slightly patronising and largely irrelevant.

Ath_Wat

diystarter7 said:

Section62 said:

diystarter7 said:

Torry_Quine said:

The door my father has the chain is part of it rather than added later. This means that I can unlock the door and get in even if the chain is on. Very useful if I need to get in quickly.

Thank you - so for the frail that may have a key safe/etc, best to label keys
As I posted earlier, poss the police training/refresher courses, in the event of a walfare entry where frail person living alone/etc, break door glass to reach if appropriate
Thanks

As above, breaking glass to effect entry is not necessarily that easy, nor should it be seen as a method which is preferable to others such as forcing the door.

Broken glass can be extremely dangerous.  Doors can be replaced, people can't.

I've yet to see a composite door as per OP's dad's door that does not have toughed glass and not sure why you mentioned that as the topic is about a composite door.

Thanks

So the police should also be trained in distinguishing composite doors from other forms of door.  I'm sure there's plenty of time for that.

I am sure that  "Pensioner dies in own house as police wait outside arguing about whether the front door is composite or not" is a headline everyone would say is a reasonable price to pay for a few less broken door frames.

YoungBlueEyes

What if the unresponsive person was laid out behind the door? How would spattering them with broken glass be helpful..?! 

lisyloo

Ath_Wat said:

lisyloo said:

chris_n said:

lisyloo said:

Ath_Wat said:

lisyloo said:

DanDare999 said:

lisyloo said:

DanDare999 said:

Bendy_House said:

Are door chains actually accessible from the outside - are the door gaps large enough? Wouldn't that defeat their purpose if someone wanted to get in - an easy 'snip' rather than a 'smash'?

If the gaps are large enough to get a bolt-cutter in there, then I'm surprised the services don't use a BC before a battering ram - the time taken must be very similar, and far less chance of injury (and property damage, of course).

Think about what you said there, how do the open the door to use bolt cutters?

In this case SIL was on site with the key from key safe, so door was unlocked.

So you've said. 

so in answer to your question "how do the open the door to use bolt cutters?", in this case the answer is you unlock the door with the available key.
Or are you asking more generally? In which case you wouldn't be able to and therefore that option would be unavailable.

Don't you think that one reason the police didn't turn up with bolt cutters is because someone had told them they had a key?

There's no "squad of officers" trained and equipped for entering premises with minimal damage, and if there were, how long do you think you would have to wait for them?  Generally when they break into premises it is both pre planned and very much against the wishes of the residents.  In a case like this you get whoever is close enough and free to get there.

I like to hear what others have to say, listen and consider it but I’m afraid I don’t agree with you on either point.

on emergency 999 calls I would expect despatch ASAP and not faffing around with equipment depending on what the possibly confused and/or shocked caller said.
also the emergency services would very possibly be coming straight from another call.
on the contrary it could be argued that if someone said “we have a key but there’s a chain on” then the response would be “ok guys let’s take the van with the cutting equipment for this one”.

on the second point, for health with have specific vehicles (ambulances) and specifically trained resources (paramedics) to deal with 999 calls. Where volunteers are used I would expect them to have a very well defined and strict brief about the limited scope of their actions.
for police 999 calls I would expect suitably trained, dressed and equipped officers to turn up. 
this is not only for the benefit of the public but there will be a duty of care to the officers involved and rightly so.
so I don’t agree that Fred the untrained desk sergeant who is used to answering telephones will show up just because he’s closest. I suspect Fred might come off worst if he tried to break down a door that he’s not trained, dressed or equipped to deal with.

I hope that explains better my thinking.

Remember there has been an issue in the news where a series of 999 calls couldn't provide a 'squad of officers' (or even a single one) to prevent  a mother and daughter from being murdered while they were on their final 999 call. The police is as stretched as any public service, they certainly don't have squads waiting around for things like this.

I totally agree with you about the problems and people are dying because of it.
we should all Consider these stories when we are voting because one day it will be us or our loved ones.

there is an emergency service though who are in place to deal with 999 call albeit extremely stretched.

They don’t send Karen from accounts to break the front door down just becuase she’s closest, partly because she might break her wrist in the process.

No - and they didn't.  Someone called 999, so they sent the first available police officer who was properly trained to effect entry as quickly as possible without injury to anyone, including the person inside, who may actually have been in danger where time was an issue.

Your complaint, remember, is that you think they did too much damage.

How much longer would you have wanted them to wait to get the "properly trained" officers with "correct equipment", and what additional risk to the person inside are you willing to accept to save a few door frames?

If there's no emergency, call a locksmith, and pay for it.  If there's an emergency, call the police and accept the consequences.

I don't have a complaint and have never indicated a complaint. 
I was merely educating myself.

There is no way I would have wanted them to wait.
Why is that kind of question necessary when I was simply trying to educate myself.
Perhaps you can consider being a little more kind?

lisyloo

Thank you so much to everyone who has helped.
Sadly my Dad has since passed away.

Lloyds insurance have been very good and of course I'd recommend them.
The police did reply and said they too were surprised the chain was stronger than the door, but that's the simple truth, so I wasn't a million miles out in being surprised at what happened.

I don't believe I have ever complained about the police.
I'm a little surprised they don't carry cutters as standard given they would be useful in a wide variety of situations and are small but there you go.

Thank you wholeheartedly to everyone that helped x
Some of you need to re-consider the tone of your responses as this is meant to be a site that helps people who may be uneducated about certain topics and in many cases undergoing diffculties.
Comments about complaints, expecting the police to wait etc. are unwelcome and completely unwarranted.
The only thing I'd expect is a little more equipment as standard.
education, conflicting opinions are always welcome.

Leaving now as I'm arranging a funeral and you'll have to forgive me on this ocassion for not wanting to discuss the minutae but lets just say a little kindness can go a long way x

twopenny

Lisyloo, so sorry for your loss.

Your dad was lucky to have such a caring daughter.