Police damage to front door - possibly excessive

Section62

diystarter7 said:

The bit about the back door etc - unless there is an easily accessible rear access and clearly marked keys most cops won't have the time to look/think about that so IMHO something like above. The systems above can be a couple of gadgets or as many as you like and also linked to cctv if one wishes.

Someone was present at the property (presumably why the police were called in the first place) who would know there was a usable backdoor key. If they had access to the key and could use it then there would have been no need for the police to be called in the first place.  The simplest solutions are often the best - an alarm/intercom is no use if the person is unresponsive.

I'm not an expert on the procedures the "cops" follow, but for a call involving a potentially vulnerable person I'd guess most would use their initiative if there was a visible/accessible back garden and take a look round the back of the house before battering the front door down.  After all, it would be a tad embarrasing finding the person relaxing in their back garden with a Piña colada and having to explain to them you've just battered their front door down in preference to simply using the side gate/path.

lisyloo

DanDare999 said:

lisyloo said:

DanDare999 said:

Bendy_House said:

Are door chains actually accessible from the outside - are the door gaps large enough? Wouldn't that defeat their purpose if someone wanted to get in - an easy 'snip' rather than a 'smash'?

If the gaps are large enough to get a bolt-cutter in there, then I'm surprised the services don't use a BC before a battering ram - the time taken must be very similar, and far less chance of injury (and property damage, of course).

Think about what you said there, how do the open the door to use bolt cutters?

In this case SIL was on site with the key from key safe, so door was unlocked.

So you've said. 

so in answer to your question "how do the open the door to use bolt cutters?", in this case the answer is you unlock the door with the available key.
Or are you asking more generally? In which case you wouldn't be able to and therefore that option would be unavailable.

lisyloo

Section62 said:

lisyloo said:

Section62 said:

lisyloo said:

twopenny said:

A stressful time for all.
There was a thread on here recently where someone had accidentally wrenched a door with the chain still on and the damage was significant but anything less secure defeats the object.

My neighbour has given me her key code since she's had falls even though she has a piper alarm. Could that be a possibility as back up?

Thanks
There is already a keysafe and people present had the code and hence the police had the key.
I had the safe put in a few days after his wife passed away.

He won't be having a chain on the new door.

Is there an accessible back door?  Would it be possible to have a separate keysafe and key for the back door, so he can still have a chain on the front door?

The keysafe can take multiple keys.
Yes we could put back door keys in there also so there are 2 options.
I believe he left the keys in the back door on the inside which I believe would have prevented anyone unlocking it from the outside so there would have been a similar issue only 2 doors (conservatory plus kitchen) to break down.
He was clearly in daytime mode (chain on, keys in door) and not night time mode (chain off).
Unfortunately he was unresponsive until awake.

Some insurers insist all external doors have key operated locks, but in a situation where there is a risk of someone locking themselves in the house and being unresponsive I personally would consider replacing the back door locks with thumbturn versions of a type which menas they can always be opened with a key from outside.  There comes a point where the risk to life/wellbeing aspect becomes more important than the ability to make an insurance claim.

If he's in the habit of removing the key from the locks before going to bed there's also a risk that in an emergency he may not be able to find the key quickly enough to unlock the door to escape.

Believe me there's no chance of making a fast get away !
But I agree the health and safety aspect is now more important than the security aspect.

I think he can be persuaded to change his habits normally, but that doesn't mean things happen when he's ill.

DanDare999

lisyloo said:

DanDare999 said:

lisyloo said:

DanDare999 said:

Bendy_House said:

Are door chains actually accessible from the outside - are the door gaps large enough? Wouldn't that defeat their purpose if someone wanted to get in - an easy 'snip' rather than a 'smash'?

If the gaps are large enough to get a bolt-cutter in there, then I'm surprised the services don't use a BC before a battering ram - the time taken must be very similar, and far less chance of injury (and property damage, of course).

Think about what you said there, how do the open the door to use bolt cutters?

In this case SIL was on site with the key from key safe, so door was unlocked.

So you've said. 

so in answer to your question "how do the open the door to use bolt cutters?", in this case the answer is you unlock the door with the available key.
Or are you asking more generally? In which case you wouldn't be able to and therefore that option would be unavailable.

I was asking in relation to general question posed by Bendy House if you'd read it. 

lisyloo

DanDare999 said:

lisyloo said:

DanDare999 said:

lisyloo said:

DanDare999 said:

Bendy_House said:

Are door chains actually accessible from the outside - are the door gaps large enough? Wouldn't that defeat their purpose if someone wanted to get in - an easy 'snip' rather than a 'smash'?

If the gaps are large enough to get a bolt-cutter in there, then I'm surprised the services don't use a BC before a battering ram - the time taken must be very similar, and far less chance of injury (and property damage, of course).

Think about what you said there, how do the open the door to use bolt cutters?

In this case SIL was on site with the key from key safe, so door was unlocked.

So you've said. 

so in answer to your question "how do the open the door to use bolt cutters?", in this case the answer is you unlock the door with the available key.
Or are you asking more generally? In which case you wouldn't be able to and therefore that option would be unavailable.

I was asking in relation to general question posed by Bendy House if you'd read it. 

ok, no problem with general discussion but I don't think that was clear.
The bold bit I see is preceeded by an "If" but I won't interfere with your general discussion as we're clearly not intrepreting even single subordinating conjunctions in the same manner.

diystarter7

lisyloo said:

diystarter7 said:

Hi OP
Has you/dad considered an alarm/intercom sytem? Some councils provided them and may cost depending on the client's financial circumstances or you can buy.

They are not as intrusive as CCTV. If a person is hard of hearing and or deaf, there are vibrating alerts and flashing lights in rooms of ones choice.

EG, very hard of hearing person takes out hearing aid/etc falls asleep on sofa/etc, when the amplified bell rings the red light flashes in the remove and like an alam pendant or a gadget under the pillow, seat their fave seat etc vibrates often does the trick

The bit about the back door etc - unless there is an easily accessible rear access and clearly marked keys most cops won't have the time to look/think about that so IMHO something like above. The systems above can be a couple of gadgets or as many as you like and also linked to cctv if one wishes.

He has an alarm with a pendant and wrist strap supplied by the council. (paid by him).
He generally puts this on when he goes to bed (but at the moment not when he's well and awake).
He also takes his mobile phone with him when he retires for the night.
The alarm has a fall sensor that detects hard falls and he can activate it himself.
That's what I thought was the right choice a few months ago when his wife passed away.
He is compos mentis but has fallen in the past when ill.

I am considering daily carers and CCTV (he would obvs have to agree to that) but this "cold" is (I think) a temporary situation and we have people visiting daily.

The issue really is that his health can change and mostly he's fine on his own, so mostly not in need of daily care.
It would be a difficult and depressing thing for him to accept he needs care I think, so it's not always immediately obvious what is in his best interests and of course he's capable of making his own decisions.

Thanks. That as the next thing i was going t suggest, fall sensor, bed/chair sensors.
Yes, the next step is carers. My MiL died some years ago and she lived with her son and his family in a pretty big house and they had a few quid - they watch their money like most and managed to get a lady on their road to pop in twice a day to make sure all was well and had a chat and cup of fresh tea etc if required and heat the cooked food.  They paid her a lot less than the going rate for a couple of hours as she was only there on average 20/30 mins and paid her cash in hand 20 quid a day - we have met the lady as she is trustworthy.
You are doing the right thing not much more you can do.
Often and I met hundreds via work as one becomes more frail they are often not prepared to listen to family but often take advice from strangers like me when I worked for a council but some did not



Good luck

TELLIT01

Very easy to be wise after the event, but my brother lived alone and we stressed to him not to put the chain on unless he was answering the door.  That was to avoid the risk of a situation like the OP experienced.  We always used to leave the key in our inner front door, on the basis of being able to make a quick exit in the event of a fire or other problem.  We stopped doing that when somebody commented that if we couldn't get to the door for any reason, nobody would be able to get in even if they had a key.

It's things like that I suspect we are all 'guilty' of because the assumption is that it makes us safer.

diystarter7

TELLIT01 said:

Very easy to be wise after the event, but my brother lived alone and we stressed to him not to put the chain on unless he was answering the door.  That was to avoid the risk of a situation like the OP experienced.  We always used to leave the key in our inner front door, on the basis of being able to make a quick exit in the event of a fire or other problem.  We stopped doing that when somebody commented that if we couldn't get to the door for any reason, nobody would be able to get in even if they had a key.

It's things like that I suspect we are all 'guilty' of because the assumption is that it makes us safer.

Sadly, many are not aware that locking the door from the inside and leaving the key in the hole or just leaving the key in the hole
stops people from the outside opening the door.

It's best to lock, and double lock a door at night and keep key handy but in a panic people, cant find the key. The better way around this is turn the alrm on when you go out/bed. 

If door is not double locked most crooks can easily open it and we never locked ours and about 20 years ago someone tried to break in. We always put the chain on and almost always recalled to alarm up at night and that night we did. About 4-30 am on a July morning I was woken up by what sounded like an alarm, little did I realised it was the 30 second warning before the alarm is triggered as I rubbed my eyes I heard a bang. It was the big upvc door that had been shouldered by the crooks and hit the hall table after the cUT the door chain, by the time they managed to open the door/cut chain the alrm went off the excrement ran off as i could here people running away and car speed off as windows were open on hot night.  So the alrm and the chain saved us we had a brand new car at the time and cops felt  crooks came for car. ( whenever we buy a new car that is deemed high risk, we leave the keys at the bottom of the staris in one of those anto radar tins.

Double locking the door keeps crooks out but frail or anyone for that matter if key is not in lock in a fire may panic and not find the key or be able to open the door in a panic.

Ath_Wat

lisyloo said:

DanDare999 said:

lisyloo said:

DanDare999 said:

Bendy_House said:

Are door chains actually accessible from the outside - are the door gaps large enough? Wouldn't that defeat their purpose if someone wanted to get in - an easy 'snip' rather than a 'smash'?

If the gaps are large enough to get a bolt-cutter in there, then I'm surprised the services don't use a BC before a battering ram - the time taken must be very similar, and far less chance of injury (and property damage, of course).

Think about what you said there, how do the open the door to use bolt cutters?

In this case SIL was on site with the key from key safe, so door was unlocked.

So you've said. 

so in answer to your question "how do the open the door to use bolt cutters?", in this case the answer is you unlock the door with the available key.
Or are you asking more generally? In which case you wouldn't be able to and therefore that option would be unavailable.

Don't you think that one reason the police didn't turn up with bolt cutters is because someone had told them they had a key?

There's no "squad of officers" trained and equipped for entering premises with minimal damage, and if there were, how long do you think you would have to wait for them?  Generally when they break into premises it is both pre planned and very much against the wishes of the residents.  In a case like this you get whoever is close enough and free to get there.

lisyloo

Quote £1500, have put in a claim to household insurance.