Police damage to front door - possibly excessive

diystarter7

pollypenny said:

Not wanting to side-track the thread, but the OP mentioned that it was a composite door. I didn't think it was possible to put a chain on a composite door. 

Hello

Of course, it can and we have one as does OP's dad.

FYI - a "composite" door is 'made up of several parts/materials

Good morning

lisyloo

Ath_Wat said:

Olisyloo said:

Ath_Wat said:

lisyloo said:

DanDare999 said:

lisyloo said:

DanDare999 said:

Bendy_House said:

Are door chains actually accessible from the outside - are the door gaps large enough? Wouldn't that defeat their purpose if someone wanted to get in - an easy 'snip' rather than a 'smash'?

If the gaps are large enough to get a bolt-cutter in there, then I'm surprised the services don't use a BC before a battering ram - the time taken must be very similar, and far less chance of injury (and property damage, of course).

Think about what you said there, how do the open the door to use bolt cutters?

In this case SIL was on site with the key from key safe, so door was unlocked.

So you've said. 

so in answer to your question "how do the open the door to use bolt cutters?", in this case the answer is you unlock the door with the available key.
Or are you asking more generally? In which case you wouldn't be able to and therefore that option would be unavailable.

Don't you think that one reason the police didn't turn up with bolt cutters is because someone had told them they had a key?

There's no "squad of officers" trained and equipped for entering premises with minimal damage, and if there were, how long do you think you would have to wait for them?  Generally when they break into premises it is both pre planned and very much against the wishes of the residents.  In a case like this you get whoever is close enough and free to get there.

I like to hear what others have to say, listen and consider it but I’m afraid I don’t agree with you on either point.

on emergency 999 calls I would expect despatch ASAP and not faffing around with equipment depending on what the possibly confused and/or shocked caller said.
also the emergency services would very possibly be coming straight from another call.
on the contrary it could be argued that if someone said “we have a key but there’s a chain on” then the response would be “ok guys let’s take the van with the cutting equipment for this one”.

on the second point, for health with have specific vehicles (ambulances) and specifically trained resources (paramedics) to deal with 999 calls. Where volunteers are used I would expect them to have a very well defined and strict brief about the limited scope of their actions.
for police 999 calls I would expect suitably trained, dressed and equipped officers to turn up. 
this is not only for the benefit of the public but there will be a duty of care to the officers involved and rightly so.
so I don’t agree that Fred the untrained desk sergeant who is used to answering telephones will show up just because he’s closest. I suspect Fred might come off worst if he tried to break down a door that he’s not trained, dressed or equipped to deal with.

I hope that explains better my thinking.

It doesn't really matter whether you disagree with the fact I have said there is no squad of trained and equipped officers for this purpose, because it is not a matter of opinion. There isn't one.  There isn't a "van with the cutting equipment" on standby either.

If you want there to be one, start campaigning for at least quadrupling taxation so it can be funded.

I partially agree with you. There are services that exist to cut people Out of cars etc.and air ambulances so these things do exist and I don’t believe we send untrained people out without equipment to break down doors (because they’d hurt themselves and employers have legal health and safety duties to their employees).

I totally agree with you on everything being stretched beyond safe levels.

I do personally believe we should pay more taxation (not quadruple) for better services otherwise people will continue to die waiting in ambulances and at home and I don’t believe that’s what the general public want. Politicians should be honest about it.
I won’t be going on a crusade/campaign as I’m too busy making sure my Dad stays alive, but I will be using my vote and engaging with my (and his) MP. 

It is worrying for all of us should we ever need these services which could happen to any of us.

pollypenny

diystarter7 said:

pollypenny said:

Not wanting to side-track the thread, but the OP mentioned that it was a composite door. I didn't think it was possible to put a chain on a composite door. 

Hello

Of course, it can and we have one as does OP's dad.

FYI - a "composite" door is 'made up of several parts/materials

Good morning

Oh, thanks very much. On the brochure which came with the door it says nothing to be stuck on it.  Presumably that means no drilling into it either. 

Section62

diystarter7 said:

What officers could be trained up to remember is: When entering a property where there is a suspected welfare issue, EG nonresponsive person that has been frail - if there is a window in the door near the handle, break that first  (imo it's a bit of common sense)

Good morning

Breaking glass, particularly toughened glass or double-glazed units, is not as easy as you might imagine - "common sense" is not always right.

And having shards of broken glass added to the situation creates a significant danger of injury which wasn't there to begin with.

No sensible police force is going to instruct officers to break windows and reach through the hole to open the door/window as a routine first approach.

diystarter7

pollypenny said:

diystarter7 said:

pollypenny said:

Not wanting to side-track the thread, but the OP mentioned that it was a composite door. I didn't think it was possible to put a chain on a composite door. 

Hello

Of course, it can and we have one as does OP's dad.

FYI - a "composite" door is 'made up of several parts/materials

Good morning

Oh, thanks very much. On the brochure which came with the door it says nothing to be stuck on it. 

No worries.

I fitted one to our massive upvc door and crooks cut the chain but it did the business as alarm was on delay at night and as door open after the alarm warning the alrm went off

I fitted one to the house we live in a massive comp door, took out the cassette and looked inside it and it was very solid - so fixed screws - searched for composite door security chains,

NB: It depends on how long screws are and what they screw into and importantly the weaker point could be the door frame on composite doors but a chain imo is better than no chain. Make sure the screws do not hit something you are not supposed to hit

lisyloo

chris_n said:

lisyloo said:

Ath_Wat said:

lisyloo said:

DanDare999 said:

lisyloo said:

DanDare999 said:

Bendy_House said:

Are door chains actually accessible from the outside - are the door gaps large enough? Wouldn't that defeat their purpose if someone wanted to get in - an easy 'snip' rather than a 'smash'?

If the gaps are large enough to get a bolt-cutter in there, then I'm surprised the services don't use a BC before a battering ram - the time taken must be very similar, and far less chance of injury (and property damage, of course).

Think about what you said there, how do the open the door to use bolt cutters?

In this case SIL was on site with the key from key safe, so door was unlocked.

So you've said. 

so in answer to your question "how do the open the door to use bolt cutters?", in this case the answer is you unlock the door with the available key.
Or are you asking more generally? In which case you wouldn't be able to and therefore that option would be unavailable.

Don't you think that one reason the police didn't turn up with bolt cutters is because someone had told them they had a key?

There's no "squad of officers" trained and equipped for entering premises with minimal damage, and if there were, how long do you think you would have to wait for them?  Generally when they break into premises it is both pre planned and very much against the wishes of the residents.  In a case like this you get whoever is close enough and free to get there.

I like to hear what others have to say, listen and consider it but I’m afraid I don’t agree with you on either point.

on emergency 999 calls I would expect despatch ASAP and not faffing around with equipment depending on what the possibly confused and/or shocked caller said.
also the emergency services would very possibly be coming straight from another call.
on the contrary it could be argued that if someone said “we have a key but there’s a chain on” then the response would be “ok guys let’s take the van with the cutting equipment for this one”.

on the second point, for health with have specific vehicles (ambulances) and specifically trained resources (paramedics) to deal with 999 calls. Where volunteers are used I would expect them to have a very well defined and strict brief about the limited scope of their actions.
for police 999 calls I would expect suitably trained, dressed and equipped officers to turn up. 
this is not only for the benefit of the public but there will be a duty of care to the officers involved and rightly so.
so I don’t agree that Fred the untrained desk sergeant who is used to answering telephones will show up just because he’s closest. I suspect Fred might come off worst if he tried to break down a door that he’s not trained, dressed or equipped to deal with.

I hope that explains better my thinking.

Remember there has been an issue in the news where a series of 999 calls couldn't provide a 'squad of officers' (or even a single one) to prevent  a mother and daughter from being murdered while they were on their final 999 call. The police is as stretched as any public service, they certainly don't have squads waiting around for things like this.

I totally agree with you about the problems and people are dying because of it.
we should all Consider these stories when we are voting because one day it will be us or our loved ones.

there is an emergency service though who are in place to deal with 999 call albeit extremely stretched.

They don’t send Karen from accounts to break the front door down just becuase she’s closest, partly because she might break her wrist in the process.

lisyloo

Some good news from LLOYDS (gold policy)

“We have received your photos and quotation for the damage caused to your property. I have issued a payment to you this morning for the full amount on the quotation with the deduction of your excess. The payment will reach your account within 24 hours. I have closed your claim as complete”.

Torry_Quine

The door my father has the chain is part of it rather than added later. This means that I can unlock the door and get in even if the chain is on. Very useful if I need to get in quickly.

diystarter7

Torry_Quine said:

The door my father has the chain is part of it rather than added later. This means that I can unlock the door and get in even if the chain is on. Very useful if I need to get in quickly.

Thank you - so for the frail that may have a key safe/etc, best to label keys
As I posted earlier, poss the police training/refresher courses, in the event of a walfare entry where frail person living alone/etc, break door glass to reach if appropriate
Thanks

chris_n

lisyloo said:

chris_n said:

lisyloo said:

Ath_Wat said:

lisyloo said:

DanDare999 said:

lisyloo said:

DanDare999 said:

Bendy_House said:

Are door chains actually accessible from the outside - are the door gaps large enough? Wouldn't that defeat their purpose if someone wanted to get in - an easy 'snip' rather than a 'smash'?

If the gaps are large enough to get a bolt-cutter in there, then I'm surprised the services don't use a BC before a battering ram - the time taken must be very similar, and far less chance of injury (and property damage, of course).

Think about what you said there, how do the open the door to use bolt cutters?

In this case SIL was on site with the key from key safe, so door was unlocked.

So you've said. 

so in answer to your question "how do the open the door to use bolt cutters?", in this case the answer is you unlock the door with the available key.
Or are you asking more generally? In which case you wouldn't be able to and therefore that option would be unavailable.

Don't you think that one reason the police didn't turn up with bolt cutters is because someone had told them they had a key?

There's no "squad of officers" trained and equipped for entering premises with minimal damage, and if there were, how long do you think you would have to wait for them?  Generally when they break into premises it is both pre planned and very much against the wishes of the residents.  In a case like this you get whoever is close enough and free to get there.

I like to hear what others have to say, listen and consider it but I’m afraid I don’t agree with you on either point.

on emergency 999 calls I would expect despatch ASAP and not faffing around with equipment depending on what the possibly confused and/or shocked caller said.
also the emergency services would very possibly be coming straight from another call.
on the contrary it could be argued that if someone said “we have a key but there’s a chain on” then the response would be “ok guys let’s take the van with the cutting equipment for this one”.

on the second point, for health with have specific vehicles (ambulances) and specifically trained resources (paramedics) to deal with 999 calls. Where volunteers are used I would expect them to have a very well defined and strict brief about the limited scope of their actions.
for police 999 calls I would expect suitably trained, dressed and equipped officers to turn up. 
this is not only for the benefit of the public but there will be a duty of care to the officers involved and rightly so.
so I don’t agree that Fred the untrained desk sergeant who is used to answering telephones will show up just because he’s closest. I suspect Fred might come off worst if he tried to break down a door that he’s not trained, dressed or equipped to deal with.

I hope that explains better my thinking.

Remember there has been an issue in the news where a series of 999 calls couldn't provide a 'squad of officers' (or even a single one) to prevent  a mother and daughter from being murdered while they were on their final 999 call. The police is as stretched as any public service, they certainly don't have squads waiting around for things like this.

I totally agree with you about the problems and people are dying because of it.
we should all Consider these stories when we are voting because one day it will be us or our loved ones.

there is an emergency service though who are in place to deal with 999 call albeit extremely stretched.

They don’t send Karen from accounts to break the front door down just becuase she’s closest, partly because she might break her wrist in the process.

No they send the nearest available officer to assess the situation,  he finds a key is available and puts his shoulder to the door as he can get no response and it's only a chain that will keep honest people out. If there had been no key and he could not get a response there would have been an ambulance and fire brigade called to assist with the situation.