Police damage to front door - possibly excessive

lisyloo

Bendy_House said:

Are door chains actually accessible from the outside - are the door gaps large enough? Wouldn't that defeat their purpose if someone wanted to get in - an easy 'snip' rather than a 'smash'?

If the gaps are large enough to get a bolt-cutter in there, then I'm surprised the services don't use a BC before a battering ram - the time taken must be very similar, and far less chance of injury (and property damage, of course).

I would have thought it was accessible and I would say it doesn't defeat the purpose because it gives the household a chance of closing the door but I'm no expert.
we know that if someone wants to get in they can :-:smile:
All these things are about making it harder for unequipped opportunists not for stopping the determined and well equipped.

The second part is my thoughts exactly.

MattMattMattUK

Bendy_House said:

Are door chains actually accessible from the outside - are the door gaps large enough? Wouldn't that defeat their purpose if someone wanted to get in - an easy 'snip' rather than a 'smash'?

If the gaps are large enough to get a bolt-cutter in there, then I'm surprised the services don't use a BC before a battering ram - the time taken must be very similar, and far less chance of injury (and property damage, of course).

Police can open an external door with a battering ram in under ten seconds, with one of the electric cutter/chainsaw things a similar amount of time. To be able to cut the chain one first has to open the door, that either requires a key, drilling the lock, or having the lock picked (either by hand, or using a snap gun), then cutting the chain, which is going to take significantly longer than than the five to ten seconds to gain entry via a battering ram or chainsaw. 

lisyloo

Section62 said:

lisyloo said:

twopenny said:

A stressful time for all.
There was a thread on here recently where someone had accidentally wrenched a door with the chain still on and the damage was significant but anything less secure defeats the object.

My neighbour has given me her key code since she's had falls even though she has a piper alarm. Could that be a possibility as back up?

Thanks
There is already a keysafe and people present had the code and hence the police had the key.
I had the safe put in a few days after his wife passed away.

He won't be having a chain on the new door.

Is there an accessible back door?  Would it be possible to have a separate keysafe and key for the back door, so he can still have a chain on the front door?

The keysafe can take multiple keys.
Yes we could put back door keys in there also so there are 2 options.
I believe he left the keys in the back door on the inside which I believe would have prevented anyone unlocking it from the outside so there would have been a similar issue only 2 doors (conservatory plus kitchen) to break down.
He was clearly in daytime mode (chain on, keys in door) and not night time mode (chain off).
Unfortunately he was unresponsive until awake.

Had I been there I would have checked stairlift.
If it was downstairs that would indicate he never went to bed.
Then I would have hammered on the window next to his chair and checked if I could peek around the blinds.
However I wasn't there and someone (thankfully) acted.

DanDare999

Bendy_House said:

Are door chains actually accessible from the outside - are the door gaps large enough? Wouldn't that defeat their purpose if someone wanted to get in - an easy 'snip' rather than a 'smash'?

If the gaps are large enough to get a bolt-cutter in there, then I'm surprised the services don't use a BC before a battering ram - the time taken must be very similar, and far less chance of injury (and property damage, of course).

Think about what you said there, how do the open the door to use bolt cutters?

diystarter7

Hi OP
Has you/dad considered an alarm/intercom sytem? Some councils provided them and may cost depending on the client's financial circumstances or you can buy.

They are not as intrusive as CCTV. If a person is hard of hearing and or deaf, there are vibrating alerts and flashing lights in rooms of ones choice.

EG, very hard of hearing person takes out hearing aid/etc falls asleep on sofa/etc, when the amplified bell rings the red light flashes in the remove and like an alam pendant or a gadget under the pillow, seat their fave seat etc vibrates often does the trick

The bit about the back door etc - unless there is an easily accessible rear access and clearly marked keys most cops won't have the time to look/think about that so IMHO something like above. The systems above can be a couple of gadgets or as many as you like and also linked to cctv if one wishes.

rubble2

Going back a few years now my elderly Mother lived in a first floor flat so only street level access was via a solid front door.
We (Brother and me) became concerned when we could get no response either by phone or by calling at the flat. We had a spare key but unfortunately my Mother had double locked the front door and left the key in the lock.

We were convinced that she was inside so we made the decision to call the police for assistance, two officers arrived and one of them noticed that the bedroom window at the back of the flat was slightly open, he went off to the neighbourhood houses and came back with a set of extension ladders - climbed in the window, confirmed my Mother was still alive and then was able to unlock the front door from the inside.

My Mother never returned unfortunately and died in Hospital a couple of weeks later but we were both appreciative of the help and resourcefulness  of the officers involved.

lisyloo

DanDare999 said:

Bendy_House said:

Are door chains actually accessible from the outside - are the door gaps large enough? Wouldn't that defeat their purpose if someone wanted to get in - an easy 'snip' rather than a 'smash'?

If the gaps are large enough to get a bolt-cutter in there, then I'm surprised the services don't use a BC before a battering ram - the time taken must be very similar, and far less chance of injury (and property damage, of course).

Think about what you said there, how do the open the door to use bolt cutters?

In this case SIL was on site with the key from key safe, so door was unlocked.

lisyloo

diystarter7 said:

Hi OP
Has you/dad considered an alarm/intercom sytem? Some councils provided them and may cost depending on the client's financial circumstances or you can buy.

They are not as intrusive as CCTV. If a person is hard of hearing and or deaf, there are vibrating alerts and flashing lights in rooms of ones choice.

EG, very hard of hearing person takes out hearing aid/etc falls asleep on sofa/etc, when the amplified bell rings the red light flashes in the remove and like an alam pendant or a gadget under the pillow, seat their fave seat etc vibrates often does the trick

The bit about the back door etc - unless there is an easily accessible rear access and clearly marked keys most cops won't have the time to look/think about that so IMHO something like above. The systems above can be a couple of gadgets or as many as you like and also linked to cctv if one wishes.

He has an alarm with a pendant and wrist strap supplied by the council. (paid by him).
He generally puts this on when he goes to bed (but at the moment not when he's well and awake).
He also takes his mobile phone with him when he retires for the night.
The alarm has a fall sensor that detects hard falls and he can activate it himself.
That's what I thought was the right choice a few months ago when his wife passed away.
He is compos mentis but has fallen in the past when ill.

I am considering daily carers and CCTV (he would obvs have to agree to that) but this "cold" is (I think) a temporary situation and we have people visiting daily.

The issue really is that his health can change and mostly he's fine on his own, so mostly not in need of daily care.
It would be a difficult and depressing thing for him to accept he needs care I think, so it's not always immediately obvious what is in his best interests and of course he's capable of making his own decisions.

DanDare999

lisyloo said:

DanDare999 said:

Bendy_House said:

Are door chains actually accessible from the outside - are the door gaps large enough? Wouldn't that defeat their purpose if someone wanted to get in - an easy 'snip' rather than a 'smash'?

If the gaps are large enough to get a bolt-cutter in there, then I'm surprised the services don't use a BC before a battering ram - the time taken must be very similar, and far less chance of injury (and property damage, of course).

Think about what you said there, how do the open the door to use bolt cutters?

In this case SIL was on site with the key from key safe, so door was unlocked.

So you've said. 

Section62

lisyloo said:

Section62 said:

lisyloo said:

twopenny said:

A stressful time for all.
There was a thread on here recently where someone had accidentally wrenched a door with the chain still on and the damage was significant but anything less secure defeats the object.

My neighbour has given me her key code since she's had falls even though she has a piper alarm. Could that be a possibility as back up?

Thanks
There is already a keysafe and people present had the code and hence the police had the key.
I had the safe put in a few days after his wife passed away.

He won't be having a chain on the new door.

Is there an accessible back door?  Would it be possible to have a separate keysafe and key for the back door, so he can still have a chain on the front door?

The keysafe can take multiple keys.
Yes we could put back door keys in there also so there are 2 options.
I believe he left the keys in the back door on the inside which I believe would have prevented anyone unlocking it from the outside so there would have been a similar issue only 2 doors (conservatory plus kitchen) to break down.
He was clearly in daytime mode (chain on, keys in door) and not night time mode (chain off).
Unfortunately he was unresponsive until awake.

Some insurers insist all external doors have key operated locks, but in a situation where there is a risk of someone locking themselves in the house and being unresponsive I personally would consider replacing the back door locks with thumbturn versions of a type which menas they can always be opened with a key from outside.  There comes a point where the risk to life/wellbeing aspect becomes more important than the ability to make an insurance claim.

If he's in the habit of removing the key from the locks before going to bed there's also a risk that in an emergency he may not be able to find the key quickly enough to unlock the door to escape.