Loft conversion- damage to the property due to heavy rain

Doozergirl

Bendy_House said:

"even though the builder warned us possible leak and advises to allow 10% for possible additions" - some leaks are almost unavoidable. As I said, I had one, even tho' the whole roof had been tyvek'd. Cascading torrents that bring down ceilings should never ever have happened, tho'. Your builder has almost certainly messed up. I'd consider him liable.

"builder warned us there will be little water leaks during heavy rain" - 'little', that's copeable with. I'd hope you'd be somewhat prepared for this with buckets and stuff.

"following placing the steel our house had cracks on walls and ceilings inside" - some cracks wouldn't surprise me; fitting steels is usually quite intrusive work. Such cracks can be fixed. We had some appear on ceilings - not an issue.

"builder reassured us he will repair and pay all the damages" - So they should. Oh, I hope you have this in writing, or otherwise recordable? Do you?

"told us last night all our ceilings will have to come off and told us we will have to pay as per the contract (10% extra payment for any additions)" - hmm, major sign of builder trying to mitigate liability. I suspect, very strongly, that the builder knows that this is a pile of poo, but is hoping that - since you were led to be aware of a possible 10% contingency for 'additions' (a fair warning) - that he's now hoping you'll be flexible and put some of that '10%' towards his damage instead. This is not, and never was, your understanding of the 'possible' 10% contingency.

"the builder had plastic sheet covered on the roof but it has a lot of holes" -  please tell me you have photographs of this poor covering? That could be a 'biggie' in all this.

"builder told us he do have liability insurance" - does or does not? If he does, he needs to claim (and I hope they don't send out an assessor to check the quality of his roof covering.)

From what you have told us, I would forget the 'cracks' due to the work (minor issue, and almost unavoidable, utterly trivial given the other damage, and the builder should fix them anyway), and I'd not worry too much about the foundation check - unless BC deem it inadequate, and the cost of underpinning would have stopped you doing this conversion in the first place - highly unlikely. I would focus solely on the water damage, and who fixes it.

Again, do you have LP? Had this damage been caused by storms outwith the building work, you'd be claiming on your house insurance. However, will they also cover this during building work? (That's a standard Q when you apply for HI.) I doubt it.

Re: Legal Protection - it is usually a stand alone policy, but has the OP even told their insurer about the building work?  I hope so! 

Also, you're saying that the builder is 100% responsible, as was I a bit, but the OP also says they were warned about leaks and told to budget 10% for them...  something has been discussed here.   

As usual, there is a lot of info missing here and we have to be careful about jumping to conclusions.   If every ceiling in the house needs replacing because of rain, then I'd expect the OP to be describing it to have been raining in the house, tbh.   For that to happen, you expect zero roof covering. 

And to echo, BCOs are doing their job; they are only doing their best by the building.  Some of them lack customer service skills but that was a low blow! 

Section62

Doozergirl said:

From what you have told us, I would forget the 'cracks' due to the work (minor issue, and almost unavoidable, utterly trivial given the other damage, and the builder should fix them anyway), and I'd not worry too much about the foundation check - unless BC deem it inadequate, and the cost of underpinning would have stopped you doing this conversion in the first place - highly unlikely.

As usual, there is a lot of info missing here and we have to be careful about jumping to conclusions.

Completely agree with all your post, in particular that sentence.

Without seeing the cracks and knowing size, location, direction, and when they appeared relative to the work to knock through, it is wrong to dismiss them as "utterly trivial", especially in a case where the builder appears not to know/follow some of the basics of good practice.

Microcracks in a wall above the location where a wall has been taken out may be unavoidable, but in a bungalow cracks in walls near to where the structure has been altered should cause some thought about the cause, especially if they have appeared after the sledgehammering is finished.  For context it would be useful to know if the BCO was aware of these cracks when they asked for a foundation check.

Bendy_House

Of course, and - as always - it's all based on what we've been told.

The OP said "even though the builder warned us possible leak and advises to allow 10% for possible additions" which implies to me that they were warned to possibly expect some leaks - although obviously not of the devastating variety - and to also factor in 10% for possible 'additions' - again good advice, but I didn't interpret this as having anything to do with the 'possible leaks', or even to do with the 'known' work.

As with our extension, these 'possible additions' are for unknowns, things that simply could not have been anticipated as being required, and will only become clear as the work proceeds, and requiring extra work and materials. For us, it was, "We won't know what we'll find until we actually dig the foundations (it was adjacent to a bomb shelter, as we all have...), so worse-case is that we may need to fill the shelter with concrete - that would be extra."

I cannot interpret the OP's builder as meaning, "There may be some leaks, so factor in 10% to sort the resulting damage!"

Possibly, he meant, "There may be some leaks, so factor in 10% for additional weather protection", but - man - that horse has surely bolted.

Yes, good point - I hope they informed their insurer. Have to say, I didn't - never crossed my mind.

And, of course, there may have been other discussions we are not privy to, such as, "There's a huge risk of very heavy rain, so we recommend a full cover", so which the OP said, "Non..."

DanDare999

SoJacob said:

Hello all,
I can't thank you enough for your advice.


Photos attached-

https://www.dropbox.com/s/2swycizlgivjzux/Document.docx?dl=0

The good news from today is- 
the building inspector came and advised that we do not have to do the digging for the foundation check. It seems as an error from the person who posted the letter. (Big relief.. phew...)

The bad news- 
I was there when the building inspector came but I missed may be 5 mins. According to my builder the inspector advised him to remove all ceiling as they are chip board due to fire hazard. Our builder told us that he won't be definitely paying for the damage as the ceiling had to come off anyway as advised by the inspector. (I will be confirming this with the council). Please refer to the picture where you can see the chip board. We requested about us paying may be half as the property would not have such damage if the roof was covered properly. Please refer to the picture I took from the garden, you can see one hole but actually it has so many holes, unfortunately the photo was not taken close to the sheets. 

our roof is now covered the roof with EPDM. 

 
I hope you'd be somewhat prepared for this with buckets and stuff. 

- the house had buckets and used our underlays on the floor. But it was not that helping. The damage was already done. 

So they should. Oh, I hope you have this in writing, or otherwise recordable? Do you? 

- no there is nothing in writing. He told us verbally. 

"the builder had plastic sheet covered on the roof but it has a lot of holes" -  please tell me you have photographs of this poor covering?
Plese see some pictures- 
https://www.dropbox.com/s/2swycizlgivjzux/Document.docx?dl=0

"builder told us he do have liability insurance" - does or does not? If he does, he needs to claim (and I hope they don't send out an assessor to check the quality of his roof covering.)
- we had a chat with him but he adamant that this is some we will have to pay and he seems not considering that the damage was due to the leak and poor temporary roofing. He is now saying it is now pointless referring to the damage due to the rain as the ceilings now have to come off anyway as they are chip boarded and advised by the council. 

Again, do you have LP? 

Legal protection? if so, yes we do but it won't cover for poor workmanship. 

According to the home insurance policy it looks like we won't be able to get any help
-If your home will be unoccupied or unfurnished for more than 60 days in a row (losses are more likely to

happen in unoccupied or unfurnished properties). - we still have not moved in 

7. If you are having any building work done.

- You must tell us before the start of any building work, conversions, renovations, demolitions and

extensions at your property.  - *We have not told the insurance company* 

- You must tell us about the work at least 30 days before it starts.

- (You do not need to tell us if the work is for redecoration only, is routine maintenance or is to replace or

refit existing kitchen or bathroom fittings and does not involve making any structural changes to walls,

ceilings or floors.)

- You must also tell us if the building work alters the number of bedrooms or bathrooms.

In conclusion- 
-I will speak to the BC to ensure what was actually advised in regard to having new ceilings as I have not heard the advice which may have done before I turned up. do they normally advise to remove an exciting ceiling due to fire hazard? 
-At present we the builder won't take any responsibilities and we still remain to have a professional relationship, but it is so hard now as he is not even apologising for the damages caused which could be prevented
-I have planned to go to the citizen advice bureau 

If the builder has insurance then they probably advise them not to apologise if a claim maybe forthcoming.

Ok so you didn't inform your insurance company. That's not to say you can't use the legal protection just they won't pay a claim.

What is it you expect the CAB to do? You maybe best speaking to a solicitor who can advise on the strength of any claim you may have.

Is the builder a sold trader or a limited company?
Have you checked him out on companies house if limited co?
How long has he been trading and how many companies has he closed? 

Bendy_House

SoJacob said:

Hello all,
I can't thank you enough for your advice.


Photos attached-

https://www.dropbox.com/s/2swycizlgivjzux/Document.docx?dl=0

The good news from today is- 
the building inspector came and advised that we do not have to do the digging for the foundation check. It seems as an error from the person who posted the letter. (Big relief.. phew...)

The bad news- 
I was there when the building inspector came but I missed may be 5 mins. According to my builder the inspector advised him to remove all ceiling as they are chip board due to fire hazard. Our builder told us that he won't be definitely paying for the damage as the ceiling had to come off anyway as advised by the inspector. (I will be confirming this with the council). Please refer to the picture where you can see the chip board. We requested about us paying may be half as the property would not have such damage if the roof was covered properly. Please refer to the picture I took from the garden, you can see one hole but actually it has so many holes, unfortunately the photo was not taken close to the sheets. 

our roof is now covered the roof with EPDM. 

 
I hope you'd be somewhat prepared for this with buckets and stuff. 

- the house had buckets and used our underlays on the floor. But it was not that helping. The damage was already done. 

So they should. Oh, I hope you have this in writing, or otherwise recordable? Do you? 

- no there is nothing in writing. He told us verbally. 

"the builder had plastic sheet covered on the roof but it has a lot of holes" -  please tell me you have photographs of this poor covering?
Plese see some pictures- 
https://www.dropbox.com/s/2swycizlgivjzux/Document.docx?dl=0

"builder told us he do have liability insurance" - does or does not? If he does, he needs to claim (and I hope they don't send out an assessor to check the quality of his roof covering.)
- we had a chat with him but he adamant that this is some we will have to pay and he seems not considering that the damage was due to the leak and poor temporary roofing. He is now saying it is now pointless referring to the damage due to the rain as the ceilings now have to come off anyway as they are chip boarded and advised by the council. 

Again, do you have LP? 

Legal protection? if so, yes we do but it won't cover for poor workmanship. 

According to the home insurance policy it looks like we won't be able to get any help
-If your home will be unoccupied or unfurnished for more than 60 days in a row (losses are more likely to

happen in unoccupied or unfurnished properties). - we still have not moved in 

7. If you are having any building work done.

- You must tell us before the start of any building work, conversions, renovations, demolitions and

extensions at your property.  - *We have not told the insurance company* 

- You must tell us about the work at least 30 days before it starts.

- (You do not need to tell us if the work is for redecoration only, is routine maintenance or is to replace or

refit existing kitchen or bathroom fittings and does not involve making any structural changes to walls,

ceilings or floors.)

- You must also tell us if the building work alters the number of bedrooms or bathrooms.

In conclusion- 
-I will speak to the BC to ensure what was actually advised in regard to having new ceilings as I have not heard the advice which may have done before I turned up. do they normally advise to remove an exciting ceiling due to fire hazard? 
-At present we the builder won't take any responsibilities and we still remain to have a professional relationship, but it is so hard now as he is not even apologising for the damages caused which could be prevented
-I have planned to go to the citizen advice bureau 

Not a builder of integrity. He's jumped at what the BCO said about the ceiling material, when it's pretty obvious that - had the ceiling not fallen in - the BCO would have said no such thing.

The ceilings are really 'chipboard'?! Do you have samples of it? If not, grab some now. Take some close-up photos, and post them on here (you can load pics straight on to the thread, but keep them below, I think, 5MP.)

If the ceilings are chipboard, and the BCO sticks to what he said about them requiring replacement, then I have to say I'm not sure what to suggest. The builder looks as tho' he's going to get away with a lot of the damage he caused through sheer luck (but - evidence that material).

What about the flooring and walls, tho' - surely he needs to sort these?

As DD says, good chance you won't be able to make a claim from your own insurance yourself, since you didn't inform them (what would they have done if you had, I wonder?). BUT, your LP should still be there to provide advice, and help you make a claim against the builder if needed; your LP will actually be through a completely different company to your insurer, eg RAC are commonly used.

Get a sample of that ceiling!

Bendy_House

Follow cab's advice. And/or call your LP.

Ok, that ceiling is weird. Here's the thing - a plasterboard ceiling may well have survived a short downpour, but that stuff 'not'. That complicates things - it's not a suitable material.

Perhaps compromise - you pay for materials - p'board and skim - and they do the labour FOC?

Doozergirl

What is that blockwork I can see through the ceiling?  

what is happening upstairs now?  More photos please?  

Section62

SoJacob said:

Converting the roof.

 

Putting in new gable walls and a whole new roof?  So effectively a 'vertical extension' rather than what most people would think of as a loft conversion?

Do you have a 'before' picture of the outside you can share?

SoJacob

Putting in new gable walls and a whole new roof?  So effectively a 'vertical extension' rather than what most people would think of as a loft conversion?

YES.. 

Do you have a 'before' picture of the outside you can share?

PLEASE CHECK YOUR PM. 

Thank you 

YoungBlueEyes

FOC = free of charge.