Loft conversion- damage to the property due to heavy rain

SoJacob

Hi all, 
I appreciate your advice. Me and my family going through some difficult time. 

Situation
- bought the bungalow in sept
- renovated ground floor- changed flooring, open lounge dining plan, plastering, painting, rewiring etc 
- started the loft convention following plan and permission in October 
- builder warned us there will be little water leaks during heavy rain
- following placing the steel our house had cracks on walls and ceilings inside 
-due to the heavy rain our house started to leak 
- a week ago our builder told us the kitchen ceiling have to come off
-damages to the brand new flooring
- builder reassured us he will repair and pay all the damages  
- told us yesterday morning one of the bedroom ceiling will have to come off 
- told us last night all our ceilings will have to come off and told us we will have to pay as per the contract (10% extra payment for any additions)
- in addition to this builder got a letter from the council to dig from one of the bedrooms to check something to ensure that the building can bear the loft conversion, he told us it is an addition
- the builder had plastic sheet covered on the roof but it has a lot of wholes 
- builder told us he do have liability insurance 

My question is- 

even though the builder warned us possible leak and advises to allow 10% for possible additions- are we responsible to pay the damages to the property? As it could be prevented by having a temporary roofing with steel sheeting? Does such damaged covered by builders liability insurance? 

Thank you. 

Doozergirl

You renovated downstairs a month before doing a loft conversion? Why?! 😫. 

It is an obvious risk that if you remove a roof that there are going to be leaks, especially if the rain is torrential.  You can pay a lot extra for a scaffolding 'tin hat' to protect the roof but even that isn't as good as a regular roof because the house is still open.  

Why do the ceilings need to come down?  Because of water or to facilitate the conversion?    

If an investigation into the state of the footings needs to take place then yes, you need to pay for that.    It's either going to be priced into your contract based on the initial specifications you gave to the builder or it isn't.  If it's a surprise to you then it won't be - it's fairly uncommon to need to check the foundations when carrying out a loft conversion so it isn't something that would be automatically priced in. 

Renovating downstairs just before a loft conversion is such a bad idea. It's a major job and of course there is risk of damage to downstairs. The rule is to work from the top down.   Insurance isn't going to cover things that happen in the course of a regular building job.  I mean, the builder is probably liable for damage if it was their idea to, and you paid them to plaster, paint and put flooring down, finishing downstairs first.  

 

HampshireH

@Doozergirl would you have expected the foundations to have been checked before the roof came off? This, if required seems like the most sensible approach.

I'm unsure why they have taken the roof off before confirming the works are ok to go ahead.

What would occur post roof removal for the Council to then flag it at that stage?

Bendy_House

SoJ, do you have Legal Protection on your house insurance? I'd call them for advice - see what they say.

Your builder has no liability insurance?! What!!! Who is the builder, and how did you find them? Are they known and established in the area? Good reputation?

General points: if these ceilings have been damaged by rain, then I would consider the builder liable - if they take the roof off, they need to ensure it's been kept waterproof (during our loft conversion, the stripped roof leaked during heavy rain even tho' they'd fully tyvek'd it - it flopped inside at the bottom. But the builder sorted it all. We also had a labourer come through our ceiling during breakfast. These were both 'funny', even at the time, but would NOT have been had we fully redone the downstairs first.)

If the builder really does not have LI, I don't think that means they are suddenly 'not liable' - they'll just have to cover the repair from their own pocket. Again, get advice from your LP - carry out the checks they suggest (eg, companies house).

Was the conversion done under Permitted Development? Ie, Planning Permission was not required? But what about Building Regs? I presume you, or your architect, or the builder submitted detailed plans for BR approval? Did the BCO suggest/insist on a foundation check at that point? 

When was your house built? Do you have any plans from then, that would show foundation detail? Bottom line, if the BCO insists on a foundation test dig, then that's part of the cost of such work, and would be part of the overall bill in any event.

Sounds a 'mare, and if this builder is making noises that they are not fully liable for making good the weather damage, I'd have concerns. 

SoJacob

Thank you
@HampshireH. 

The reason we have renovated the ground floor because we wanted to move in ASAP so we could rent out the current property. The builder reassured us that it should not be a problem to do that way. But it is actually a great problem due to unexpected heaving rain. 

The reason for the ceiling to come down is because they are socked and will collapse as otherwise. 

In regards to the foundation check, my understanding is the council was delayed to post him that letter. Someone from the building control came after the roof was opened and the letter advising him to dig was after that visit. Our builder was surprised when he received this letter. 

Even though our builder seems nice we are still not sure if it’s fair we pay all for replacing a new ceiling as it could be prevented with some better rain cover. But if he wants us to pay then we will pay as we want to move in 🙁

Bendy_House

How much of this can you 'evidence', SoJ - the builder's assurance that the downstairs would be fine?

But, bottom line, it SHOULD have been fine. The roof SHOULD have been made watertight. If rain gets in and cause damage, the builder SHOULD be liable, and fully sort it.

Re the founds - the builder probably assumed/knew the founds for your type and age of house would be absolutely fine, so wasn't expecting this test request from the BCO. It's a gamble, tho' - if a test had revealed underpinning WAS required at £Xk (not cheap), would that have scuppered your plans, or would you still have gone ahead?

'Possibly' the BCO is a pedant, and others would not have asked for this (none was required for our 1930's bungalow, for example). Sometimes BCOs are on someone's 'case' as they might know them to be corner-cutters, for example, but we don't know if there's anything like that going on here. Again, age and type of house, and what type of ground?

Doozergirl

HampshireH said:

@Doozergirl would you have expected the foundations to have been checked before the roof came off? This, if required seems like the most sensible approach.

I'm unsure why they have taken the roof off before confirming the works are ok to go ahead.

What would occur post roof removal for the Council to then flag it at that stage?

I wouldn't have expected to check foundations before a regular loft conversion, no, but I also wouldn't doing a loft conversion on a house that had literally just been renovated downstairs.  That's madness. 

I would expect to check foundations if adding to the wall and not just adding dormer/s. 

Do we have plans to see? 

Apodemus

Unexpected heavy rain?   ...In October/November?  ...in UK?  Whodathunkit!  

Doozergirl

It's definitely not okay for you to be expected to pay for redoing things that should never have been done first.  I know you wanted to be in, but removing a roof is a huge job and you should have stayed where you were if you didn't want to live in the middle of a renovation, especially if you have the luxury of owning another property.  You were either going to incur extra costs and be comfortable or run the risk that what has happened happens.  

I'd see it as my job to inform you of the risks and manage your expectations first, and frankly not take on the job if you insisted on doing the job backwards.  That is  a massive and pointless risk. 

If the builder is that incompetent to agree or worse, think it's fine, then it wouldn't surprise me if they'd missed something important on the plans.  What is the Building Control route here, full plans or notice? 

Is your builder a member of the Federation of Master Builders?   

Section62

Bendy_House said:

'Possibly' the BCO is a pedant, and others would not have asked for this (none was required for our 1930's bungalow, for example). Sometimes BCOs are on someone's 'case' as they might know them to be corner-cutters, for example, but we don't know if there's anything like that going on here. Again, age and type of house, and what type of ground?

The BCO's job is to keep people safe.  Calling anyone a "pedant" for doing their job is unfair.

BCOs know the properties and conditions on their patch better than almost anyone else. They will have seen work done on many different properties in the area and will know the snags and pitfalls.  If they say a foundation check is needed it is almost certainly because their experience tells them there is a risk of inadequacy.  If they don't ask for one it will be because their experience says it isn't necessary. The decision is based on professional judgement, not some form of psychopathy.

The OP would be in a far worse position if the BCO didn't ask for this check and next summer, after the builder has packed up and gone, the OP starts noticing cracks spreading across the walls of their just-refurbished walls.

Bendy_House

"even though the builder warned us possible leak and advises to allow 10% for possible additions" - some leaks are almost unavoidable. As I said, I had one, even tho' the whole roof had been tyvek'd. Cascading torrents that bring down ceilings should never ever have happened, tho'. Your builder has almost certainly messed up. I'd consider him liable.

"builder warned us there will be little water leaks during heavy rain" - 'little', that's copeable with. I'd hope you'd be somewhat prepared for this with buckets and stuff.

"following placing the steel our house had cracks on walls and ceilings inside" - some cracks wouldn't surprise me; fitting steels is usually quite intrusive work. Such cracks can be fixed. We had some appear on ceilings - not an issue.

"builder reassured us he will repair and pay all the damages" - So they should. Oh, I hope you have this in writing, or otherwise recordable? Do you?

"told us last night all our ceilings will have to come off and told us we will have to pay as per the contract (10% extra payment for any additions)" - hmm, major sign of builder trying to mitigate liability. I suspect, very strongly, that the builder knows that this is a pile of poo, but is hoping that - since you were led to be aware of a possible 10% contingency for 'additions' (a fair warning) - that he's now hoping you'll be flexible and put some of that '10%' towards his damage instead. This is not, and never was, your understanding of the 'possible' 10% contingency.

"the builder had plastic sheet covered on the roof but it has a lot of holes" -  please tell me you have photographs of this poor covering? That could be a 'biggie' in all this.

"builder told us he do have liability insurance" - does or does not? If he does, he needs to claim (and I hope they don't send out an assessor to check the quality of his roof covering.)

From what you have told us, I would forget the 'cracks' due to the work (minor issue, and almost unavoidable, utterly trivial given the other damage, and the builder should fix them anyway), and I'd not worry too much about the foundation check - unless BC deem it inadequate, and the cost of underpinning would have stopped you doing this conversion in the first place - highly unlikely. I would focus solely on the water damage, and who fixes it.

Again, do you have LP? Had this damage been caused by storms outwith the building work, you'd be claiming on your house insurance. However, will they also cover this during building work? (That's a standard Q when you apply for HI.) I doubt it.