So the discretionary fund is.....**drumroll**.......£100 measly quid!?

in_my_bumble_opinion

Section62 said:

savers_united said:

With regards to vouchers would a voucher issued with name / address per household that can be used to reduce the cost of next oil delivery by £100 be a simple approach. A quick check could be made on application for voucher that mains gas is not supplied

The simplest approach would be to take the MPAN database, subtract properties with an active connection on the MPRN database, (possibly do some tidying up) and then arrange to credit each remaining MPAN account with £100.

Anything involving printing vouchers and putting them in the post will be more complicated and expensive to administer.  And when dealing with hundreds of thousands of properties there is no such thing as a 'quick check', unfortunately.

This doesn't work as there are lots of houses that have no mains gas but have electric heating (not oil, lpg, gas or pellets). They have already received their discount via the electricity rate being capped.

savers_united

Section62 said:

savers_united said:

With regards to vouchers would a voucher issued with name / address per household that can be used to reduce the cost of next oil delivery by £100 be a simple approach. A quick check could be made on application for voucher that mains gas is not supplied

The simplest approach would be to take the MPAN database, subtract properties with an active connection on the MPRN database, (possibly do some tidying up) and then arrange to credit each remaining MPAN account with £100.

Anything involving printing vouchers and putting them in the post will be more complicated and expensive to administer.  And when dealing with hundreds of thousands of properties there is no such thing as a 'quick check', unfortunately.

There are many ways of issuing the vouchers, online, digitally, if this scheme is going to run for a couple of years and offered on more than one occasion as oil prices rise then worth getting it right from the off.

Linking the voucher to the property with a unique ref number seems sensible to me, there may not even be a need to check if there is a mains supply as the voucher can only be used to offset the purchase cost of LPG / Oil to that address it would be pretty useless for anyone else, the onus would be on the approved supplier to check and submit the vouchers for the rebate, I see the merit in adopting a quicker approach you mention but not everyone without gas uses Oil / LPG, some are all electric and generate their own supply from solar / wind and would have already benefited from the EPG and £400.

maisie_cat

BUFF said:

maisie_cat said:

Ebe_Scrooge said:

wwally said:

RobM99 said:

How do gas users get help? The £400 is off electricity, or so I thought at least.

The £400 is paid to all households through electricity bills but is to cover both electricity and gas on-grid energy. The £100 is a top-up for off-grid fuel users such as heating oil, LPG and solid fuel.

So it could be argued that oil users are actually getting more help - assuming that everyone uses mains electricity.  Someone who uses electricity and gas gets £400 off their electricity bill, designed to help cover the cost of both fuels.  Those on oil still get the £400 off their electricity bill, and an additional £100 for oil.

Those on gas are also getting a 4.2p/kWh reduction as part of the EPG, so a 10000 kWh gas user will get an additional £420 off their bill on top of the £400. .

Up to 4.2p/kWh. Assuming that I get it (EPG rates still not published by supplier, I fixed in July) I will be getting ~1-1.4p/kWh support which in my case equates to ~£70-98 over the year. Some will get no support.
There are going to be so many permutations of fuel/price/usage that aiming for a similar price per kWh to the predominant fuel (gas) would seem to be fair to me.

I know it's up to, I also fixed my electric so will gain nothing, my fixed unit rate is the new EPG and my SC is higher. However, the majority of households did not fix and will therefore get a 4.2p/kWh handout for gas.

ariarnia

in_my_bumble_opinion said:

Section62 said:

savers_united said:

With regards to vouchers would a voucher issued with name / address per household that can be used to reduce the cost of next oil delivery by £100 be a simple approach. A quick check could be made on application for voucher that mains gas is not supplied

The simplest approach would be to take the MPAN database, subtract properties with an active connection on the MPRN database, (possibly do some tidying up) and then arrange to credit each remaining MPAN account with £100.

Anything involving printing vouchers and putting them in the post will be more complicated and expensive to administer.  And when dealing with hundreds of thousands of properties there is no such thing as a 'quick check', unfortunately.

This doesn't work as there are lots of houses that have no mains gas but have electric heating (not oil, lpg, gas or pellets). They have already received their discount via the electricity rate being capped.

or like my nan in law's house which has gas for cooking but no central heating installed (electric heaters upstairs and a fire int he lounge). we would get radiators put in if we could find someone to do it before winter. been meaning to get it done for a few years but didn't want anyone in during the pandemic. so for this year at least she's still relying on logs and coal for main heating. though she does get some winter heating money because of her age (£200?). 

Qyburn

maisie_cat said:

Although I'm still not clear that those who heat with wood have been taken into account, the costs of wood pellets has risen from 6.2p/kWh to a nice round 12p so the year on year increase for our 10500 kWh is £609.
At the moment I can't find specific help for that at all, the focus appears to be oil & LPG.

Does that account for the RHI payments?  At one stage some biomass systems actually made a profit, receiving more in subsidies than they were paying for fuel.

Section62

in_my_bumble_opinion said:

Section62 said:

savers_united said:

With regards to vouchers would a voucher issued with name / address per household that can be used to reduce the cost of next oil delivery by £100 be a simple approach. A quick check could be made on application for voucher that mains gas is not supplied

The simplest approach would be to take the MPAN database, subtract properties with an active connection on the MPRN database, (possibly do some tidying up) and then arrange to credit each remaining MPAN account with £100.

Anything involving printing vouchers and putting them in the post will be more complicated and expensive to administer.  And when dealing with hundreds of thousands of properties there is no such thing as a 'quick check', unfortunately.

This doesn't work as there are lots of houses that have no mains gas but have electric heating (not oil, lpg, gas or pellets). They have already received their discount via the electricity rate being capped.

It works more or less perfectly if you take the view that people who rely on electric heating are generally paying more than those who have mains gas CH, and therefore are as deserving of a boost as those using oil, coal, LPG or wood.

We have entered something of an Alice in Wonderland world when it comes to energy costs.  Rationality isn't necessarily the primary consideration any more.

Section62

savers_united said:

Section62 said:

savers_united said:

With regards to vouchers would a voucher issued with name / address per household that can be used to reduce the cost of next oil delivery by £100 be a simple approach. A quick check could be made on application for voucher that mains gas is not supplied

The simplest approach would be to take the MPAN database, subtract properties with an active connection on the MPRN database, (possibly do some tidying up) and then arrange to credit each remaining MPAN account with £100.

Anything involving printing vouchers and putting them in the post will be more complicated and expensive to administer.  And when dealing with hundreds of thousands of properties there is no such thing as a 'quick check', unfortunately.

There are many ways of issuing the vouchers, online, digitally, if this scheme is going to run for a couple of years and offered on more than one occasion as oil prices rise then worth getting it right from the off.

I agree with getting it right from the off.

Unfortunately your proposal (e.g. online/digitally) fails that test as not everyone has access to and/or uses the internet.

You'd also still need to pay for the development, maintenance and support of the online/digital system. And in parallel to using a paper system if you accept that some people won't/can't use an online/digital one.

savers_united said:

Linking the voucher to the property with a unique ref number seems sensible to me, there may not even be a need to check if there is a mains supply as the voucher can only be used to offset the purchase cost of LPG / Oil to that address it would be pretty useless for anyone else, the onus would be on the approved supplier to check and submit the vouchers for the rebate, I see the merit in adopting a quicker approach you mention but not everyone without gas uses Oil / LPG, some are all electric and generate their own supply from solar / wind and would have already benefited from the EPG and £400.

I think a voucher system would be wide open to fraud - for example if wood and coal are included in the scheme then 'spare' (/unneeded) vouchers could be used to purchase fuels which are then sold on. At a push, heating oil could also be delivered to properties (with a mains gas boiler) and then sold on.  It there is money to be made you can be sure some people will find an exploit.

Spoonie_Turtle

ariarnia said:

in_my_bumble_opinion said:

Section62 said:

savers_united said:

With regards to vouchers would a voucher issued with name / address per household that can be used to reduce the cost of next oil delivery by £100 be a simple approach. A quick check could be made on application for voucher that mains gas is not supplied

The simplest approach would be to take the MPAN database, subtract properties with an active connection on the MPRN database, (possibly do some tidying up) and then arrange to credit each remaining MPAN account with £100.

Anything involving printing vouchers and putting them in the post will be more complicated and expensive to administer.  And when dealing with hundreds of thousands of properties there is no such thing as a 'quick check', unfortunately.

This doesn't work as there are lots of houses that have no mains gas but have electric heating (not oil, lpg, gas or pellets). They have already received their discount via the electricity rate being capped.

or like my nan in law's house which has gas for cooking but no central heating installed (electric heaters upstairs and a fire int he lounge). we would get radiators put in if we could find someone to do it before winter. been meaning to get it done for a few years but didn't want anyone in during the pandemic. so for this year at least she's still relying on logs and coal for main heating. though she does get some winter heating money because of her age (£200?). 

£500 this year, if she lives alone (or £600 if she's 80+) https://www.gov.uk/guidance/cost-of-living-payment#pensioner-cost-of-living-payment

maisie_cat

Qyburn said:

maisie_cat said:

Although I'm still not clear that those who heat with wood have been taken into account, the costs of wood pellets has risen from 6.2p/kWh to a nice round 12p so the year on year increase for our 10500 kWh is £609.
At the moment I can't find specific help for that at all, the focus appears to be oil & LPG.

Does that account for the RHI payments?  At one stage some biomass systems actually made a profit, receiving more in subsidies than they were paying for fuel.

The RHI payment if for installation of what is an expensive system, it broadly brings the installation and ongoing running costs down to the level of an oil system.
We did previously have an ancient oil system and at one point in 2020 were paying 26p/L, when I did the business case oil & biomass were on a par over 10 years including the fuel and the RHI.

in_my_bumble_opinion

Section62 said:

in_my_bumble_opinion said:

Section62 said:

savers_united said:

With regards to vouchers would a voucher issued with name / address per household that can be used to reduce the cost of next oil delivery by £100 be a simple approach. A quick check could be made on application for voucher that mains gas is not supplied

The simplest approach would be to take the MPAN database, subtract properties with an active connection on the MPRN database, (possibly do some tidying up) and then arrange to credit each remaining MPAN account with £100.

Anything involving printing vouchers and putting them in the post will be more complicated and expensive to administer.  And when dealing with hundreds of thousands of properties there is no such thing as a 'quick check', unfortunately.

This doesn't work as there are lots of houses that have no mains gas but have electric heating (not oil, lpg, gas or pellets). They have already received their discount via the electricity rate being capped.

It works more or less perfectly if you take the view that people who rely on electric heating are generally paying more than those who have mains gas CH, and therefore are as deserving of a boost as those using oil, coal, LPG or wood.

We have entered something of an Alice in Wonderland world when it comes to energy costs.  Rationality isn't necessarily the primary consideration any more.

I agree with you that they are deserving, I just doubt that the government will. The wording of the discretionary payment would exclude them as it stands, but as you say things seem pretty fluid.