EDF Smart Meter Harassment

MultiFuelBurner

melbury said:

MultiFuelBurner said:

So what was the old meter using in kWh to heat your hot water in summer and what is the new meter reading?

What is the kw size of your boiler and how large is your water cylinder and at what temperature do you heat it to.

Old meter always used 2 or 3 units of gas per week 22kWh/34kWh, whereas new meter is a staggering 5 or 6 or 56/68kWh, so far higher.

Boiler is a Worcester Bosch Greenstar FS30cdi, so presumably 30kw, not sure about the size of the hot water tank, think water temperature is 62 which is what the boiler gets to then switches off.  All is exactly the same as it has always, been except for the gas meter.

Thanks for that let's assume you have a 180l tank of hot water and you are going from 20oC to 62oc

So that's 180(tank size) X 4(factor) X 42(temperature rise) /3412 (constant)

That's 8.87 kWh per day if you keep running it down to 20oC

Factor in your boiler won't be 100% efficient as well so it could take 10kwh per heat cycle on the example above.

The formula is in the link below

https://elementsofheating.wordpress.com/2012/09/26/how-to-calculate-the-kw-required-to-heat-a-volume-of-water-in-a-particular-time/

mmmmikey

Hi @melbury sounds like a bit of a nightmare but nothing that can't be sorted. Unfortunately you posted this on a thread where others had been ranting about smart meters and to be honest your initial post came across a little bit the same - although I think it is obvious to everyone now that there is a genuine problem here that needs to be fixed and you weren't just pouring fuel on the anti smart meter fire.

A thought occurs to me - when is your next boiler service due? I'm thinking that if its not too far in the future maybe you could bring it forward? A routine part of the service should include a gas tightness check and that would eliminate the possibility of any hidden leak. 

Good luck and I hope you get to the bottom of things quickly :-)

ArbitraryRandom

melbury said:

ArbitraryRandom said:

melbury said:

ArbitraryRandom said:

melbury said:

You are saying that meters can become "uncalibrated" over time, but as pointed out, I have taken readings since we moved in and there has been nothing at all to signify that the gas meter was giving incorrect readings at any time, they were absolutely constant.  

Are you suggesting in years like 2013/14 or 2017/18 your meter gave readings consistent with ones you took in 2015/16 or 2019/20? 

Because if you are... then it would suggest there was something wrong with your meter as those are some of the coldest vs warmest years in the last decade and you 'should' have seen wide variation in your usage. The problem is, without calibration in controlled conditions, you (anyone) has no real way of saying how wide those variations 'should' be if the meter is reading accurately.

There's basically three choices: 

1. Your old meter was recording incorrectly and the new meter is correct
2. Your old meter was recording correctly and the new meter is incorrect 
3. Your use has dramatically changed without you noticing (which could also include a leak somewhere in the system)

Hence my suggestion of a sanity test that you can carry out today to give you some indication of if your current meter is working correctly or if there's a problem with the system - It's not perfect, but if your meter records >1 unit for a 10 minute shower (when every other gas appliance is turned off) then it might be worth investigating further. (First get someone into check for leaks, then contact your supplier to test the meter.) 

But if during your test the meter records ~half a unit or less - then it's more than likely accurate and it's either you or your old boiler that's the problem.  

As I have tried to explain, we have recorded our readings every week in a little book since we moved in and we were the first residents of this house (sadly the current book only goes back to 2013), but the usage has been pretty consistent during the summer/winter periods throughout the years.  Of course they are not exactly the same, but last year we were able to make about a 15% reduction in gas usage.  

Every week over the summer the gas readings have been either 2 or 3 units per week, as previously stated just hot water on for 1 hour per day.  Following new meter being installed this has risen to 5 or 6 units per week. We haven't even put the heating on yet God forbid.  Our current boiler has been in for about 12 years and is serviced every year.

Okay - let's say there's something wrong with your new meter. 

The advice given to anyone who comes on here with a meter problem is to do a sanity test... because (as QrizB has suggested) asking your supplier to test the meter can cost you £100+ so you want to try the free/cheap options first. 

That means turn everything off, take a reading. Wait half an hour, take a reading. Run one appliance with a 'predictable' usage, take a reading. Wait half an hour, take a final reading.

It's about an hour and a half/two hours of your life but information you then have will help you decide on the next step (that the meter seems fine - bringing in a plumber to test your appliances/check for leaks - or jumping directly to contacting your supplier for a meter test/replacement)

I am not sure what you mean by check your appliances, as the only thing we use gas for is heating and hot water.  So if we stopped it for that 1 hour per day heating the hot water, would that work? The hot water being on for 1 hour per day is the most predictable usage we have as it has been a constant throughout the summer for the past 32 years. 

The challenge there is the baseline and the possible range with an 'accurate' meter. 

We can say that an 'average' shower uses somewhere around half a unit - so if your meter said it was using double that or more then that would be worth looking into... but we can't say the same thing about heating water for an hour (there's no simple 'average' to point to) and 6kw would be well within the normal/expected range of use. 

Did you say you had taken a reading with the boiler (given that's your only gas using appliance) turned off?

If not I'd suggest turning it off overnight/for 12 hours and seeing if the numbers change (which would suggest a leak or faulty meter).

If they do then you can turn off the boiler AND turn off the gas supply (a little tap near your meter) - if the numbers still keep going up then it's the meter, if they don't then there's a good chance of a leak. 

If they don't then I'd get the boiler checked - if it's not the boiler then I think we would be back to this meter being fine and it being your old one that was wrong... 

Mobtr

melbury said:

ArbitraryRandom said:

melbury said:

You are saying that meters can become "uncalibrated" over time, but as pointed out, I have taken readings since we moved in and there has been nothing at all to signify that the gas meter was giving incorrect readings at any time, they were absolutely constant.  

Are you suggesting in years like 2013/14 or 2017/18 your meter gave readings consistent with ones you took in 2015/16 or 2019/20? 

Because if you are... then it would suggest there was something wrong with your meter as those are some of the coldest vs warmest years in the last decade and you 'should' have seen wide variation in your usage. The problem is, without calibration in controlled conditions, you (anyone) has no real way of saying how wide those variations 'should' be if the meter is reading accurately.

There's basically three choices: 

1. Your old meter was recording incorrectly and the new meter is correct
2. Your old meter was recording correctly and the new meter is incorrect 
3. Your use has dramatically changed without you noticing (which could also include a leak somewhere in the system)

Hence my suggestion of a sanity test that you can carry out today to give you some indication of if your current meter is working correctly or if there's a problem with the system - It's not perfect, but if your meter records >1 unit for a 10 minute shower (when every other gas appliance is turned off) then it might be worth investigating further. (First get someone into check for leaks, then contact your supplier to test the meter.) 

But if during your test the meter records ~half a unit or less - then it's more than likely accurate and it's either you or your old boiler that's the problem.  

As I have tried to explain, we have recorded our readings every week in a little book since we moved in and we were the first residents of this house (sadly the current book only goes back to 2013), but the usage has been pretty consistent during the summer/winter periods throughout the years.  Of course they are not exactly the same, but last year we were able to make about a 15% reduction in gas usage.  

Every week over the summer the gas readings have been either 2 or 3 units per week, as previously stated just hot water on for 1 hour per day.  Following new meter being installed this has risen to 5 or 6 units per week. We haven't even put the heating on yet God forbid.  Our current boiler has been in for about 12 years and is serviced every year.

Just a thought, was your old meter a 4 dial imperial meter or a 5 dial metric meter? 

If it was 4 dial, that would explain why you were using less units per week than you are now. 

Sea_Shell

"Every week over the summer the gas readings have been either 2 or 3 units per week, as previously stated just hot water on for 1 hour per day.  Following new meter being installed this has risen to 5 or 6 units per week. We haven't even put the heating on yet God forbid.  Our current boiler has been in for about 12 years and is serviced every year."

Is that 1 hour how long it's on for regardless of the thermostat (timer), or is that roughly how long it's on for, but it has actually cut out before the hour is up? *


We also only have the HW coming on once a day, and, out of interest, I've just looked to see what ours has used this morning (boiler was only on for 40mins, before the thermostat kicked in).   Yesterday was a fairly 'average' day, in that we didn't use any extra HW for baths or car washing etc.

The scores on the doors are in and we have used ... 4.49 kwh     (yes, I allowed the IHD to flick over at another 30 min interval )

So if you x this by 7 =  31.43 kwh   then divide by 11.2 (rough conversion), then you get = 2.80 m3 per week.   Very similar to the usage you were previously recording.

* BUT, if that 2.8m3 only represents 40 mins a day, rather than a full hour, I would be looking at usage of over 4m3 if it was taking a full hour.  ( 2.8/40*60 )

But yes.   If my own records showed that my usual weekly HW use had suddenly doubled from 2 / 3 to 5 / 6, then I'd be concerned too.


I hope you get to the bottom of it, one way or another.

Zandoni

melbury said:

I was pressured by EDF into having my meters changed and I eventually caved in, provided they were fitted in dumb mode. I really did not want to have them changed, but was told that if it wasn’t done this year it would have to be next year - is that true? Also they said that my existing meters had reached the end of their lifespan and they were legally required to change them - again I have my doubts about that.  Although they were 32 years old they worked perfectly and were good solid British made meters. Now I have two meters that were made in China.

I know my old meters were still accurate because I have always taken weekly readings (sad person that I am).  However, since the new gas meter was fitted the weekly usage has more than doubled and I am so upset because I know if I contact them they will simply say the old meter was obviously not working properly.  Well it couldn’t have been giving incorrect readings for 32 years and now I will have to try and use 50% less gas this winter just to have a similar figure to last year. 

 I feel like phoning them and saying that there must be a fault with the gas meter, but can’t see that it would get me anywhere.

What did your old Gas meter look like, was it a tin box mechanical diaphragm type or a plastic electronic display type.

Mobtr

Zandoni said:

melbury said:

I was pressured by EDF into having my meters changed and I eventually caved in, provided they were fitted in dumb mode. I really did not want to have them changed, but was told that if it wasn’t done this year it would have to be next year - is that true? Also they said that my existing meters had reached the end of their lifespan and they were legally required to change them - again I have my doubts about that.  Although they were 32 years old they worked perfectly and were good solid British made meters. Now I have two meters that were made in China.

I know my old meters were still accurate because I have always taken weekly readings (sad person that I am).  However, since the new gas meter was fitted the weekly usage has more than doubled and I am so upset because I know if I contact them they will simply say the old meter was obviously not working properly.  Well it couldn’t have been giving incorrect readings for 32 years and now I will have to try and use 50% less gas this winter just to have a similar figure to last year. 

 I feel like phoning them and saying that there must be a fault with the gas meter, but can’t see that it would get me anywhere.

What did your old Gas meter look like, was it a tin box mechanical diaphragm type or a plastic electronic display type.

That’s what I’ve asked. If the previous meter was imperial that would answer the question. Don’t know why this hasn’t been mentioned before. Thought it would have been the first question asked 

[Deleted User]

Zandoni said:

melbury said:

I was pressured by EDF into having my meters changed and I eventually caved in, provided they were fitted in dumb mode. I really did not want to have them changed, but was told that if it wasn’t done this year it would have to be next year - is that true? Also they said that my existing meters had reached the end of their lifespan and they were legally required to change them - again I have my doubts about that.  Although they were 32 years old they worked perfectly and were good solid British made meters. Now I have two meters that were made in China.

I know my old meters were still accurate because I have always taken weekly readings (sad person that I am).  However, since the new gas meter was fitted the weekly usage has more than doubled and I am so upset because I know if I contact them they will simply say the old meter was obviously not working properly.  Well it couldn’t have been giving incorrect readings for 32 years and now I will have to try and use 50% less gas this winter just to have a similar figure to last year. 

 I feel like phoning them and saying that there must be a fault with the gas meter, but can’t see that it would get me anywhere.

What did your old Gas meter look like, was it a tin box mechanical diaphragm type or a plastic electronic display type.

You have every right to ask your supplier for an independent meter check by SGS - the Government-approved testing facility. The supplier will replace your existing meter; bag and seal your existing meter and send to SGS for testing. You will be charged for this test. If the meter is found to be within limits, then the test charge will be refunded.

That said, meter faults are extremely rare. In circumstances such as yours, the principle of Occam’s Razor normally applies. That is, the most obvious explanation is usually the correct one.

You need to check volume units on your bill against your meter (cubic feet and cubic meters), and check for leaks on the house side of the meter. Fitting a meter can put soldered joints under stress. If you are going to check for leaks then use soapy water or bubble solution.

victor2

Dolor said:

...

 If the meter is found to NOT be within limits, then the test charge will be refunded.
...

Think that's what you meant to say, or something along thise lines.

lohr500

I did ask earlier if there could be any confusion over the unit of measurement on the old and new meters.